1289cc piston direction
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  1. #1
    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
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    Default 1289cc piston direction

    Can someone confirm the direction of the arrow on the piston crown that faces sideways, I believe it to be in the direction of rotation i.e toward the distributor. All my manuals only refer to foreward facing arrows.

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    Last edited by 59 Floride; 4th November 2012 at 08:16 AM.
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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Yep, that is right. Sideways arrow points rotation.

    I think an arrow aligned with the pin would point towards the flywheel.
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    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
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    Great thanks.
    Every day when I wake up I reach up in the darkness with my eyes shut and if I cannot feel anything that resembles a wooden lid I know it will be a good day. No lid today.

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    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    I was going to say they go up and down, just like all the other ones unless it's a radial or boxer engine.
    KB
    KB


  5. #5
    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
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    Gee thanks for the tip KB,

    My old heart is currently pounding because I just had my conrods in the oven to expand the small end and managed to press all the gudgens in without breaking any pistons, nearvous stuff that.

    This is my patended piston cradle made from an old liner with a hole bored in it, it gives the piston full structural support during the pressing process and it worked a treat, there were two that were really tight and may have broken the pistons without such a device. Feel free to copy.


    This is the kind of stuff that I dream up in the middle of the night.

    1289cc piston direction-022.jpg
    Last edited by 59 Floride; 3rd November 2012 at 07:52 PM.
    Every day when I wake up I reach up in the darkness with my eyes shut and if I cannot feel anything that resembles a wooden lid I know it will be a good day. No lid today.

  6. #6
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 59 Floride View Post
    Can someone confirm the direction or the arrow on the piston crown that faces sideways, I believe it to be in the direction of rotation i.e toward the distributor. All my manuals only refer to foreward facing arrows.

    Thanks
    I'd have presumed it to be the thrust side, which would be opposite to the distributor side given the clockwise direction of rotation facing the flywheel. Must be the direction of rotation then.

    I've never seen arrows pointing sideways. Always seen them pointing to the flywheel.

    Good you got the gudgeon pins on without damage except to nerves. What temperature did you apply out of interest? The next interesting moment will be whether the alignment is OK, i.e. how the internal clearances look on rotation after assembly before the sump goes on. Be OK all being well but I'd check how it looks.

    A friend in Perth did a BMW twin crankshaft assembly straight from oven to kitchen floor a couple of years ago. I remain in awe of that one!
    JohnW

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    Lovely photo of a great approach to pressing the pin into the piston. Thanks for that.

    Did you heat the sleeve, the pin and the piston?
    JohnW

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    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
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    JW,

    I had the domestic oven on full tilt-250deg C and made a b-line for the garage where the press was set up.

    Only heated the conrod.
    Every day when I wake up I reach up in the darkness with my eyes shut and if I cannot feel anything that resembles a wooden lid I know it will be a good day. No lid today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 59 Floride View Post
    JW,

    I had the domestic oven on full tilt-250deg C and made a b-line for the garage where the press was set up.
    Ah, so the most dangerous part was probably the b-line moment!

    Thanks for that. I'll remember. I guess I'd not be able to make it work in a vice.
    JohnW

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    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
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    I believe you can heat the conrod up with a gas torch to get more expansion, so the vice may work in that case, I'm sure others have tried it, I also bet many have busted pistons too.
    Every day when I wake up I reach up in the darkness with my eyes shut and if I cannot feel anything that resembles a wooden lid I know it will be a good day. No lid today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 59 Floride View Post
    I believe you can heat the conrod up with a gas torch to get more expansion, so the vice may work in that case, I'm sure others have tried it, I also bet many have busted pistons too.
    I've always paid for this job I must admit. Given the reliability of the engines, I haven't assembled one from scratch since 1988.
    JohnW

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  12. #12
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    If there is not a mark then check the gudgeon pin center. The gudgeon pin on factory pistons are off center. When viewed from the crank pulley side (no 4 side) the engine rotates clock wise and then the smallest half should be on the left hand side. Ignore the mark and install it that way then you know it is right. It is important to have the piston correct, the conrod can be either side.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1289cc piston direction-piston-rotation.jpg  
    Old enough to know better
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    I'd have presumed it to be the thrust side, which would be opposite to the distributor side given the clockwise direction of rotation facing the flywheel. Must be the direction of rotation then.

    I've never seen arrows pointing sideways. Always seen them pointing to the flywheel.

    Good you got the gudgeon pins on without damage except to nerves. What temperature did you apply out of interest? The next interesting moment will be whether the alignment is OK, i.e. how the internal clearances look on rotation after assembly before the sump goes on. Be OK all being well but I'd check how it looks.

    A friend in Perth did a BMW twin crankshaft assembly straight from oven to kitchen floor a couple of years ago. I remain in awe of that one!
    Agree John

    All the overhaul books clearly state, ARROWS pointing toward the flywheel.

    Chers

    Phil

  14. #14
    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
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    Something went right because she started in my test bench on the second attempt.

    I thought it sounded odd but soon realised it was just quiet without any rattles like my present motor.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1289cc piston direction-003.jpg   1289cc piston direction-013.jpg   1289cc piston direction-016-2-.jpg   1289cc piston direction-004.jpg   1289cc piston direction-001.jpg  
    Every day when I wake up I reach up in the darkness with my eyes shut and if I cannot feel anything that resembles a wooden lid I know it will be a good day. No lid today.

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Impressive test bench. How about a few wider angle shots so we can see it closer.

    The engine looks good too. I like the aluminium look
    KB


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    Quote Originally Posted by 59 Floride View Post
    Something went right because she started in my test bench on the second attempt.

    I thought it sounded odd but soon realised it was just quiet without any rattles like my present motor.

    Any chance of a few shots of the manifold side ?

    Cheers

    phil

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts forumnoreason's Avatar
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    Is that motor out of a Floride? I found pistons in boiling water was enough to slide gudgeons back in, following manual instructions for an 850 motor.

  18. #18
    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by renault8&10 View Post
    Impressive test bench. How about a few wider angle shots so we can see it closer.

    The engine looks good too. I like the aluminium look
    Quote Originally Posted by R8philSA View Post
    Any chance of a few shots of the manifold side ?

    Cheers

    phil
    Quote Originally Posted by forumnoreason View Post
    Is that motor out of a Floride? I found pistons in boiling water was enough to slide gudgeons back in, following manual instructions for an 850 motor.

    It's a motor out of an R12 810-05.

    The painted block, sump etc is done in 3M aluminium engine paint and the head was soda blasted in my new blast cabinet (that I made).

    I can put up some more pics of the test rig tomorrow when the light is better but I have just taken all the add-ons off the motor so I am not tempted to keep starting it up because I want to put it in the car and give it the A.F. running in treatment ( there's a great thread on the topic here somewhere. Anyone know where it is?)

    The reason I made a test rig is so I can determine...A. the thing starts and goes like it should....B. make sure there are no oil or water leaks before I install it and ....C. as this is my first engine rebuild I wanted to take a methodical approach and do it right before installation.
    Last edited by 59 Floride; 7th November 2012 at 12:05 AM.
    Every day when I wake up I reach up in the darkness with my eyes shut and if I cannot feel anything that resembles a wooden lid I know it will be a good day. No lid today.

  19. #19
    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
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    Running in..http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1289cc piston direction-gggggg.jpg  
    Last edited by 59 Floride; 7th November 2012 at 08:47 PM.
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  20. #20
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    Default Photos as requested

    Don't know if this qualifies as a test rig but it works for me....

    1289cc piston direction-001.jpg1289cc piston direction-003.jpg1289cc piston direction-006.jpg1289cc piston direction-008.jpg
    Every day when I wake up I reach up in the darkness with my eyes shut and if I cannot feel anything that resembles a wooden lid I know it will be a good day. No lid today.

  21. #21
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    Running in hard from the web site sound likely to me. My R17 G engine that I recently removed has only done 10,000 kilometres and there is only 85 lb compression. There in no wear on the liners or rings. But the bore is like glass. Perhaps that is why, perhaps the previous owner ran it in slowly. Interesting.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    Running in hard from the web site sound likely to me. My R17 G engine that I recently removed has only done 10,000 kilometres and there is only 85 lb compression. There in no wear on the liners or rings. But the bore is like glass. Perhaps that is why, perhaps the previous owner ran it in slowly. Interesting.
    I intend to run it in hard Rob, what's to loose?

    Somewhere on that website I read that the crosshatched honing of the cylinders will act like a file and shape the rings to fit the bore precisely if it is run in hard soon after initial start up. See post#19 above.
    Last edited by 59 Floride; 7th November 2012 at 08:50 PM.
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  23. #23
    1000+ Posts FIVEDOOR's Avatar
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    My understanding has always been load them up and vary the revs (don't run in at constant revs). When I raced air cooled Karts, the trick was to run them in as hard as you could without building up so much heat (I know it's less of an issue with water cooled engines) that they would seize, to get max compression.

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    I have stripped my motor down and will cross hatch the bore and reassemble it and try running some hard and some easier.

    I am trying to remember; my father owned a garage way back when most people traveled at 40 - 50 mph. I seem to remember after a rebuild he would run fast then slow on a test run ( perhaps 5 or 10 miles) and then tell people to run the car in at 30 mph, for "500 or 1000" miles (? the bit I can't remember), but vary it with an occasional burst of speed.

    I have a stand for two of my motors, but not suitable to run them on, they just sit waiting for installation. I also have a stand that was used for some thing else and I was always going to adapt it so as to run the motor out of the car first. May be I will this time as I would like to get the injection working again rather than the Webers I currently use. I don't know much about injection and what parts may be good. So a test run first will keep the car off the road for less time, particularly if some thing is not working and I need to locate a replacement.

  25. #25
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    Running in hard from the web site sound likely to me. My R17 G engine that I recently removed has only done 10,000 kilometres and there is only 85 lb compression. There in no wear on the liners or rings. But the bore is like glass. Perhaps that is why, perhaps the previous owner ran it in slowly. Interesting.
    Wow, he "glazed the bores". Sounds like (a) friction-modified oil to start with or (b) far too gentle treatment and maybe a lot of idling right at the start.

    My (limited) understanding is that it is important to have some full throttle work (not lugging, and not over-revving) to get the pressures on the rings so they wear to match the bore ("bed in"). THe cross hatching is to do with micro-scale lubrication and oil control.

    In short, drive it around quite a lot and more or less as soon as you've started it and made sure nothing is leaking or falling off. Vary revs and load. My old Repco Engine Service Manual is my bible for this. Naturally, my Renault engines are so reliable I only pull it out every decade or two. But it is a great reference book.

    Now someone professional can comment better!
    JohnW

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