R8 non-Gordini front Koni issue
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  1. #1
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    Default R8 non-Gordini front Koni issue

    Well, a slight surprise under the R8 today.

    A while back I bought a pair of new Konis for her, the ones on the car being 30+ years old and secondhand when fitted. A bit of rod pitting at the top but actually they feel OK, although new top rubbers are needed.

    Anyway, the new ones are the correct R8 G ones, but only R8 Gordini are available in Koni. And the R8 G was a bit lowered in the suspension.

    Spax still offer R8/10 AND R8 Gordini adjustables.

    It turns out the new Konis are 40 mm shorter at full stroke, and really not long enough as the way to limit suspension travel is not using the end of the inside working parts of the shocker. I guess I shouldn't be too surprised.

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    The old shockers, genuine Koni, seem to have a part number 80B-1401 which doesn't bring any smiles using Google or Koni catalogues that I can find. For all I know they are off an EH Holden, although I did pull them off an R8 I wrecked back in the 1980s (or was it 1970s?).

    So, (a) there might be a pair of genuine Konis for an R8 Gordini for sale soon, brand new.

    And of course, does anyone have any good ideas? I don't want to start another, "use Mk1 Mini-Cooper rears" thread, as that is already done to death.

    The obvious thing to do is to put the old ones back and forget the matter, as they seem fine, don't do much work really, and might last another 30 years!

    I could fit a much bigger "downward" bump stop and just limit downward travel in the suspension.

    Or I could pursue the matter. I'm not interested in new average shockers as that isn't an improvement over what I have.

    All thoughts most welcome.
    Last edited by JohnW; 27th October 2012 at 11:12 PM.
    JohnW

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  2. #2
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    Hi John

    A couple of things. I had some Konis reconditioned 18 mths ago. They corrected some pitting and re-machined the shaft. They turned the Great Central Rd and the Tanimi Track into a pretty tame road...

    Secondly on the 8G the bracket on the lower control arm to which the bottom of the shocker is attached was modified so that the eye sat some distance above the standard location. There are others here who will know the exact measurement. But there is no reason - other than your commendable love of originality - why you cant modify the bottom bracket so that you have a 40mm offset. I'm sure there are plenty in Perth who could do such a mod while you wait (Geckoeng???).

    PM sent re possible sale...

    P
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exfrogger View Post
    Hi John

    A couple of things. I had some Konis reconditioned 18 mths ago. They corrected some pitting and re-machined the shaft. They turned the Great Central Rd and the Tanimi Track into a pretty tame road...

    Secondly on the 8G the bracket on the lower control arm to which the bottom of the shocker is attached was modified so that the eye sat some distance above the standard location. There are others here who will know the exact measurement. But there is no reason - other than your commendable love of originality - why you cant modify the bottom bracket so that you have a 40mm offset. I'm sure there are plenty in Perth who could do such a mod while you wait (Geckoeng???).

    PM sent re possible sale...

    P
    Thanks for that.

    Fitting Konis to the back of the R8 absolutely transformed the car. As did the front. Wish I knew what the 80B-1401 designation is!

    I think the new ones are shorter and have a shorter travel. Have to draw the geometry to get that offset right! I think all I need to allow a bit more downward travel is two fishplates and maybe a spacer tube inside the original fitting. Pretty simple actually - now why didn't I think of that? Not quite original, but nor is my Hot Spark kit. Nor is my 10S gearbox in the R1130. But I stick fairly close to original as far as practical, by and large.

    Wildebeeste made a couple of wry comments about my "new" alloy Record rocker cover last weekend at the FCF...

    Cheers
    JohnW

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    Mr. P,
    Thank you for the shove, John knows where to get me. But, 40mm shorter on standard suspension, is a limit on standard suspension. I would prefer to try for similar lengths to original, Allows the suspension to work in the correct geometry.

    Thanks,
    Ray
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    Quote Originally Posted by geckoeng View Post
    Mr. P,
    Thank you for the shove, John knows where to get me. But, 40mm shorter on standard suspension, is a limit on standard suspension. I would prefer to try for similar lengths to original, Allows the suspension to work in the correct geometry.

    Thanks,
    Ray
    Well, that is exactly as I see it. Not clever to use a shock absorber as the suspension movement limiter!

    Of course, one thing I don't know is whether the "original" Konis on my car were the right ones in the first place. They were old but sound on a car I wrecked 30 years ago. Their bodies are larger diameter than the new "correct" ones I bought too! They could have been from an EH Holden or Ford Cortina for all I know.

    I'm not sure how they lowered the R8 Gordinis relative to standard R8. I had presumed that they just shortened and stiffened the springs, but that would give the same extended length with the suspension fully extended, which clearly is not the case with my two sets of shockers.

    We'll see what emerges!

    Cheers
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Well, that is exactly as I see it. Not clever to use a shock absorber as the suspension movement limiter!

    Of course, one thing I don't know is whether the "original" Konis on my car were the right ones in the first place. They were old but sound on a car I wrecked 30 years ago. Their bodies are larger diameter than the new "correct" ones I bought too! They could have been from an EH Holden or Ford Cortina for all I know.

    I'm not sure how they lowered the R8 Gordinis relative to standard R8. I had presumed that they just shortened and stiffened the springs, but that would give the same extended length with the suspension fully extended, which clearly is not the case with my two sets of shockers.

    We'll see what emerges!

    Cheers
    It does raise an issue. I also thought that springs were the major difference. But think about the mechanics here: what else but the damper could limit droop? It'd be interesting (now that you have the dampers out) to jack it up & see just what stops it from continuing to swing down.
    cheers! Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    It does raise an issue. I also thought that springs were the major difference. But think about the mechanics here: what else but the damper could limit droop? It'd be interesting (now that you have the dampers out) to jack it up & see just what stops it from continuing to swing down.
    cheers! Peter
    Hi Peter,

    Did that.

    With the old dampers and no dampers the downward movement was limited only by the bump stop facing up on the cross member. With one of the new dampers fitted, the downward movement was limited by the damper itself, the upper arm not contacting the big rubber buffer and I'd say held, at the buffer, about 20-25 mm too far up by the length of the damper.

    If I were to modify the lower mountings to set the base of the damper about 30 mm higher, we'd be right for downward travel, but it's too late at night to think through the upward travel and whether that would be OK. I must measure, at the wishbone where the damper bolts in, how much it moves. I suspect it is less than the 80 mm or so than the damper allows. I could even apply geometry and calculate it!
    JohnW

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    John,
    As the Dauph will have hand made Bilstien replicas, I have some original shocks (Monroe's) to base dims on, front and rear. You are most welcome to come and check against those.

    Ray
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    Quote Originally Posted by geckoeng View Post
    John,
    As the Dauph will have hand made Bilstien replicas, I have some original shocks (Monroe's) to base dims on, front and rear. You are most welcome to come and check against those.

    Ray
    Thanks Ray. All I really need are the two lengths, fully extended and fully compressed, from end of rod to centre of bottom pin.

    For the old Konis, 80B-1401, they are 380 mm and 260 mm approximately (120 mm movement). For the new ones, 340 mm and 260 mm approximately (80 mm movement). The "new" ones are the genuine R8 Gordini Konis, the reference number triple checked! Of course I have no idea what the old ones are (except that they are OK) so for all I know they are modified Mini rears. I can't find any links to the old reference number (80B-1401) of course!

    Cheers
    Last edited by JohnW; 28th October 2012 at 02:14 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Thanks Ray. All I really need are the two lengths, fully extended and fully compressed, from end of rod to centre of bottom pin.

    For the old Konis, 80B-1401, they are 380 mm and 260 mm approximately (120 mm movement). For the new ones, 340 mm and 260 mm approximately (80 mm movement). The "new" ones are the genuine R8 Gordini size, triple checked! Of course I have no idea what the old ones are (except that they are OK) so for all I know they are modified Mini rears. I can't find any links to the old reference number of course!

    Cheers
    Hi John

    Just for a reference I have Bilstein shocks here for my Alpine A110 which is basically the same suspension:
    Fully extended 360mm
    Fully compressed 260mm
    Stroke 100mm

    Hope this helps a little.
    Regards Col

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    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    Hi John

    Just for a reference I have Bilstein shocks here for my Alpine A110 which is basically the same suspension:
    Fully extended 360mm
    Fully compressed 260mm
    Stroke 100mm

    Hope this helps a little.
    Thanks Col - much appreciated. Interesting dimensions that make complete sense as a fit for my standard R8.

    My understanding has always been that the A110, R8/10 and R8 Gordini had essentially the same suspension dimensions and, as sold, perhaps the same components, but with stiffer and shorter springs. Maybe the steering arm on the G and A110 was shorter to quicken the steering using just one rack for everything.

    So the potential suspension TRAVEL on all of them should be the same, although there is always potential to limit travel with different length rubber buffers.

    So why are my correct R8G shockers from Koni, new in box, be 340 mm max length with 80 mm travel. This is basically too short so the shocker would limit downward suspension travel not the rubber buffer that sits under the upper arm? Very strange, and very hard to get Koni dimensions off the web.

    Maybe my new Konis are wrongly labelled (it is a sticker, not an embossed number)?

    Happily nothing is urgent as the old ones are working fine, but the rods are starting to deteriorate at the top so I can't leave it another decade...

    Much obliged.
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    Hi John

    Just for a reference I have Bilstein shocks here for my Alpine A110 which is basically the same suspension:
    Fully extended 360mm
    Fully compressed 260mm
    Stroke 100mm

    Hope this helps a little.
    Col, forgot to ask what the Bilstein part number is please?
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Col, forgot to ask what the Bilstein part number is please?
    Hi John

    Bilstein part # F4-BE3-6257-MO

    Typ 6/-
    Regards Col

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    Thanks Col

    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    Hi John

    Bilstein part # F4-BE3-6257-MO

    Typ 6/-
    JohnW

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    Well, another little element to this.

    I found my spare rear Konis, new old stock (1973!) . They are 345 mm fully extended and 260 fully compressed and numbered 80B-1743.

    I bought them as new spares for the rears some years back (ebay of course). They have larger diameter bodies than the new fronts, same style and dimensions in every way as the "old fronts" but with a a 15 mm shorter extended length and, of course a different number.

    The "new" ones I bought recently, definitely indicated as front on Koni catalogues, are 80-1743SP3. On ebay for NOS rear R8 Konis, and on my spare REARS is 80B-1743, at 345 mm too short for the front.

    So we have the same 1743 numbers indicated for rear on old Konis and for front on new Konis!

    On current Koni catalogues for the rear is 80-1744SP3. So confusing isn't the word.

    If anyone can decipher old Koni part numbers that would be good!

    Does anyone have any rears on the bench to measure fully extended and compressed please?
    Last edited by JohnW; 28th October 2012 at 06:22 PM.
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    [QUOTE=John


    Did that.

    With the old dampers and no dampers the downward movement was limited only by the bump stop facing up on the cross member. With one of the new dampers fitted, the downward movement was limited by the damper itself, the upper arm not contacting the big rubber buffer and I'd say held, at the buffer, about 20-25 mm too far up by the length
    <snip>
    of course, silly me (brain fade)

    on another matter, you say:

    "Maybe the steering arm on the G and A110 was shorter to quicken the steering using just one rack for everything."

    regrettably, no; they are different.

    cheers! Peter

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    The easiest way to lengthen your Konis is to make an extender for the top of the piston rod which is tapped M10x1mm female to screw onto the piston rod and has a M10x 1mm male thread on it to fit the bushes and washers
    As your shocks are Konis they are rebuildable the OZ importer should be able to do this for you in the UK it is Camberley Auto Factors . They have repaired a couple for me which had been bottomed out (not good breaks the foot valve) they can also alter the valving for you if you require it
    cheers
    Well if it was easy everybody would do it

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    Quote Originally Posted by dauphproto View Post
    The easiest way to lengthen your Konis is to make an extender for the top of the piston rod which is tapped M10x1mm female to screw onto the piston rod and has a M10x 1mm male thread on it to fit the bushes and washers
    As your shocks are Konis they are rebuildable the OZ importer should be able to do this for you in the UK it is Camberley Auto Factors . They have repaired a couple for me which had been bottomed out (not good breaks the foot valve) they can also alter the valving for you if you require it
    cheers
    Thanks for that idea - I hadn't thought of approaching it that way and it is obvious once pointed out. I'd still need to be ultra-sure that the 80 mm travel was enough mind you.

    The puzzle remains of course:

    1. Why are the new Konis too short?

    2. Why do the new FRONT Konis have the same part number as my NOS REARS (1743) and much the same dimensions?

    I'm beginning to think I my new FRONTS are actually REARS. Hard to sort out on Koni's website as they don't give dimensions.

    Much appreciate your suggestion.
    JohnW

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    Hi John
    For what it's worth, I have the following Koni's that came with my R8 (not G) which I hope to fit on my R8 race car I am building.
    Front : Spec D. 80B-1743 SP3. Ext 345 / Comp 260. (Travel 85mm)
    Rear : Spec D. 80 1974. Ext 415 / Comp 285 (Travel 130mm)
    Are you saying that they won't fit/work as the travel should be 120mm?
    i would be interested also if anyone else can shed any light on his.
    angelo

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    Quote Originally Posted by R8 Dream View Post
    Hi John
    For what it's worth, I have the following Koni's that came with my R8 (not G) which I hope to fit on my R8 race car I am building.
    Front : Spec D. 80B-1743 SP3. Ext 345 / Comp 260. (Travel 85mm)
    Rear : Spec D. 80 1974. Ext 415 / Comp 285 (Travel 130mm)
    Are you saying that they won't fit/work as the travel should be 120mm?
    i would be interested also if anyone else can shed any light on his.
    angelo
    Hi Angelo,

    The front shockers that you have are the same as mine. And it looks as if my spare "rears" are actually fronts from your dimensions for the rears, which makes sense as the rears would have to have greater travel than the fronts!

    When I fitted them (1743SP3, brand new) I found that the extended length was not enough and that the shock absorber itself was limiting the downward travel of the suspension rather than the top arm resting on the buffer.

    If, as I thought, the only change to the R8 Gordini was shorter and stiffer springs, the suspension should extend to the same dimensions as the standard R8 (mine is standard) but sit lower, because the stub axle assembly is the same. So I'm puzzled and no-one has popped up here to say "NO" and explain some other difference. Someone must know and someone must have fitted new fronts with the same dimensions as the ones you and I have.

    The only other thing I can think of is that the lower mounting brackets are different on the R8 Gordini and that the lower bushes sit 15-20 mm higher than on the standard car, and that the 85 mm is enough movement for the shock absorber not to bottom out when the suspension is at full compression.

    I do know that Spax adjustables are listed with a different part number for R8 versus R8 Gordini but they haven't (yet) replied to my query. So I don't know whether the Spax product is a different size or just different damping.

    So, I have the old ones on (80B-1401) as they work fine and I have no idea what they came from!

    All a puzzle and it seems I may have four Konis that don't fit instead of two that don't fit!!

    Thanks for sending the dimensions of the rears too.
    JohnW

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    BUMP

    Does anyone have answers to either of the following please, since things are not yet quite clear?

    1. Dimensions extended and compressed for R8G and ordinary R8 front shockers, which I thought would be the same. It seems 1473 is the key part number for the fronts for the R8G, but my existing fronts on the standard R8 are 80B-1401 and are longer.
    2. What my 80B 1401 might have come from?

    I'll chase a Koni place tomorrow.

    Thanks
    JohnW

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    Hi John

    You may need to find yourself an old Koni Catalogue to find out the information you are after.

    I have done several searches of the internet looking for old Koni & Bilstein numbers and haven't come up with much.
    Regards Col

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    BUMP

    Does anyone have answers to either of the following please, since things are not yet quite clear?

    1. Dimensions extended and compressed for R8G and ordinary R8 front shockers, which I thought would be the same. It seems 1473 is the key part number for the fronts for the R8G, but my existing fronts on the standard R8 are 80B-1401 and are longer.
    2. What my 80B 1401 might have come from?

    I'll chase a Koni place tomorrow.

    Thanks
    I have been following this intriguing discussion and have been googling for info and found the following which
    may be helpful or make it more confusing.

    http://www.simtuningshop.de/Suspensi...k::304642.html

    http://www.x1-autoteile.de/index.php...=&genArtNr=854

    Jabin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    Hi John

    You may need to find yourself an old Koni Catalogue to find out the information you are after.

    I have done several searches of the internet looking for old Koni & Bilstein numbers and haven't come up with much.
    Thanks Col. I'm sure you are right there! So I spoke to Barry at Top Performance in Victoria this morning. Knowledgeable and helpful and can overhaul my old ones! His email to me has gone missing but will come again today - it seems 1401 can be found in their old catalogue and I'm getting close to believing that for some reason that I can't quite work out, the R8G fronts are shorter than standard R8. No doubt there's a reason but it isn't obvious if the stub axle component and wishbones are all the same. Something must be different.

    Now for the next response.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  25. #25
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabin View Post
    I have been following this intriguing discussion and have been googling for info and found the following which
    may be helpful or make it more confusing.

    http://www.simtuningshop.de/Suspensi...k::304642.html

    http://www.x1-autoteile.de/index.php...=&genArtNr=854

    Jabin.
    Thanks Jabin.

    That is the usual limit of what it seems possible to find on line. The R8G ones are listed.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

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