R10 engine options
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default R10 engine options

    Hello all,

    I'm a long time listener first time caller. I've owned two Renaults in the past and have wanted another one for a while, but why just buy a car. My plan is to get an R10 and put a larger engine in it but keep it street legal as I want it to be my daily driver.

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    From what I can see my options are a R12 engine either a 1.2 or 1.4 or an R16 engine, the specific numbers I don't know as I can't seem to find a list of engine codes. Of course I want as much power as possible Rebuilding and modifying shouldn't be an issue. I'm also considering the possibility of making the engine fuel injected with electronic ignition. I guess the other option would be a modern engine.

    Gearbox wise it looks from what I've read that its best to just stay with the standard gearbox or spend lots of money on flipping something around or putting it upside down.

    So what are peoples opinions/experiences on what the best option is? Next step of course will be to get a car but I'd like to know what direction I'm heading in.

    Christian

  2. #2
    COL
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    Default R10 Engine Upgrade

    Hi Christian

    You may be lucky enough to get an R10 that already has a larger engine, if not the most easily done upgrade is to get the 1.4 engine (code 847) put in a mild cam, a set of extractors and a weber 40 DCOE carb and you will have a nice car that is easy to convert, maintain, and that is road legal.
    Regards Col

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  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! Chopper Bob's Avatar
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    G'day C.lees welcome to the forum. Have you ever driven a standard R8 or R10. The original Sierra 1108 engine is, in my opinion, the sweetest, well balanced engine and was fitted to these cars for a reason. The 1108 is unburstable and reliability is it's stronpoint.
    Sure the larger engines give more power and certainly stronger torque but for sweetness and ease of use you will not do better than the 1108. It would be ideal for a daily drive, you will not hold up the traffic. My opinion, for what it is worth is to drive a couple of 1108 fitted cars, you will see what I mean. Good luck with your search but please do not give up on the ubiquitous little 1108 Sierra engine. There are many owners on this panel who have made the switch to the bigger engines and they have lots of good sound information should you decide to go down that route. I note that you reside in Sydney. A PM to MarkT to gain first hand information would be a good place to start.
    Regards
    Chopper Bob

  4. #4
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    i see a twin cam out of a cleo on the internet for $500 or so but you would have to contend with the electrics, as far as bang for bucks go it would be the easiest choice ,but its not exactly in period .PUGS

  5. #5
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    Default Re: R10 engine options

    Where did you see the Clio engine, I'm curious about which one it is

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  6. #6
    1000+ Posts geckoeng's Avatar
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    Hi Christian,
    First off there are a few threads on this subject already discussed on the Frog's site. Up to mild 1400cc you use the standard "330" gearbox, any bigger and you need the 16TS (4 speed) internals or 16TX (5 speed) The later 16 valve motors are a bit heavier.

    Second, are you a good mechanic and fabricator, if not you are in for a lot of head aches, and a lot of money for others to work for you. Saying that, it can be done by most.

    Enjoy,
    Ray
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  7. #7
    VIP Sponsor David Cavanagh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by c.lees View Post
    Where did you see the Clio engine, I'm curious about which one it is

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    I'm dying to see if this is possible.
    You might need more than just the engine but.

    We've just got a 1.4 Clio in to be wrecked. It still drives. I'm thinking that would give you the engine plus all the hardware you might need.
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  8. #8
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    The 1289 (code 842 I think) and the 1397 (847) can be direct one for one bolt ups to the 1108 (688) engines provided you have a late model 10 gearbox and clutch fork. There is minor tweaking of the water pump at one end of the head and the blanking plate (where the r12 temp guage sender is) at the other end but it is readily doable. This is a nice conversion as others have said. I would argue that as a daily driver ANY of these engines would hold up modern traffic in Sydney. The next step is the R16 or (17/18) style engines or as you say a modern Clio engine which involve much more work and effort to get off the ground. The R16 route has been done before as has the R17/18 but the latter two I think start to run into "must be engineered and become hard to register" type territory.

    Have a look at Brettr's post in the restoration section on what he has done with his R8G using R16 engine (and other gear).
    KB


  9. #9
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    Default Re: R10 engine options

    I've looked at Brett R's conversion, he managed to get it registered which is always a good sign.

    Gearbox wise I was under the impression that the 16tx box is a rare beast, how common is the 16ts box? All other options like flipping an Audi gearbox upside down look like a real pain.

    I think going down the Clio engine path would be a challenge and they come in a 197 HP version, which is just stupid, a good way to destroy gearboxes. Not to mention the brake upgrades this would require and the engineering certificates. The F7P would be an option, 135 hp, if a suitable gearbox could be found.

    I have no problems doing the mechanical work or the fabrication and a job like this is going to take some time.

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  10. #10
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    To answer the previous question of if a Clio engine in an R10 is even possible, I found a picture of a K4M engine in an R8
    http://secma-f16passion.forumactif.o...sation-k4m-690

    The K4M is 110 HP 16v NA. No idea what the gearbox is.

  11. #11
    Member julian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by renault8&10 View Post
    I would argue that as a daily driver ANY of these engines would hold up modern traffic in Sydney.
    Modern traffic in Sydney requires tinting, a good radio and an esky full of snacks/drinks, not a fast car!
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  12. #12
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    I think all this stuff is good to try, but not that easy or cheap to do. Perhaps a worthy upgrade as a first try is to find a good, running R12 engine which will bolt straight in and won't stress your gearbox. That can give you over 50BHP straight away with no other mods (you need the original R12 dizzy and carb). And after you see what does to your car you can decide if you still want to go further.

    Keep in mind the 807 family engines (R15/16/17) have an alloy block which is notorious for its capacity to corrode around the liner base and distort so the crankshaft tunnel is no longer straight. This gets very exxy very quickly (I have two such engines and both needed line boring). Heads are again another corrosion hell. Not impossible to find/repair, just another detour from actually driving the beast. I am also yet to see a rocker shaft and rocker arms not worn on these engines. Mine took metal spray loading/regrinding to newly honed rocker arms to get right. The problem is that the rocker shafts have an uncanny ability to collect crud (the ends are blocked with welch plugs) until the oiling holes are blocked and then all hell breaks loose on the rocker arm to shaft contact. But if you do know/find where a nice 807 engine is, consider yourself lucky and grab it. Make sure you get the dizzy and manifolds too. and perhaps the engine mounts (even if you can't use them they'll help you design something).

    Perhaps this is an area you might want to check if doing the R12 engine swap too. If you take the rocker cover off and slide the arms sideways you can pretty much see what's happening.

    These engines would probably allow you to keep the original gearbox (clutch cover needs changing for 807 engines together with spigot shaft). Once you forgo that, it's another universe of pain.

    Good luck, whatever you decide.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 24th October 2012 at 01:47 PM.
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  13. #13
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    Hi again Christian.

    I see two directions you might be hurtling towards. One involves older Renault parts, the other a modern conversion.

    As to the first option, I'm inclined to agree with Bob regarding the 1108.
    I would be inclined to keep the 1108, add a point-less distributor, find a set of nice carbs on a lynx manifold and spend some money getting a set of extractors made. This package would give you buckets more power than the factory setup and would be very fun in a 700kg car. All of this added gear is like porn for any R10 head and could be sold easily to many members here.
    The less time you spend having 'the law' looking over your 40 year old car the better. To that end the idea of changing an engine to an R12 motor means doing a significant amount of work that, although not arduous, still leaves you with an engine package that is still not leaps and bounds better than the little Sierra 1108 fitted standard to your 10 and still needs an inspection for rego anyway.
    Shortly thereafter you are going to want to keep modifying it anyway as your first post indicates that you are chasing power.

    The second option for a late model fuel injected setup is a dream I always had and sounds like a radical project and not something I have experience in. KB speaks of the 16, 17, or 18 engines and this would be a much faster although easier convert than a full blown late model conversion. A limiting factor in bigger power is always going to be that stock gearbox as others have said.

    "R10S FAN" from Adelaide used to have an R10 with an R5 Alpine motor fitted that was a beast but if I recall was helped off the road by a passing motorcyclist who just really wanted to come into the car and tried diving through the windscreen.
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  14. #14
    1000+ Posts J-man's Avatar
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    Would be interesting to know the details of this 1.4L Turbo conversion on this beautiful Dauphine, like gearbox, brakes, power output etc. Is anyone familiar with this one ? This set up in the R10 would bring miles of smiles I think

    R10 engine options-r1093-int.jpgR10 engine options-r1093-1.4t-engine.jpgR10 engine options-r1093-rhs.jpg
    cheers,

    John

  15. #15
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    I've given the whole modern engine a little thought and done a small amount of research. I've asked BrettR where he is up to and what is happening with his plans. There is a lot to do for this conversion, the whole rear subframe will need to be changed/constructed. There is one advantage here, you'll get different hubs with a more common stud pattern. Using the rear subframe from another car will be the way to go, there is the suggested BMW 5 series, or something along the lines of a Mazda RX7 for Nissan GTIR pulsar (which is the go fast 4wd version) as they all have strut rear suspension.

    Finding a suitable gearbox may be more difficult, the options as I see it are an Audi 012 mounted upside down or a UN1 with the crown wheel flipped. I imagine you'll be adding a bit of weight here.

    If this will all fit remains to be proven, first step would be to make a CAD model of the back of the car and the cross member so I know how much space is available. I imagine having a model would help with most modifications. Has anyone ever made one? Then I'd need models of all the other parts in question. I think this method is preferable as a lot of issues can be sorted out before you start the actual job like cv shaft lengths. Having detailed CAD drawings should help with the engineering as well.

    This may just get put in the too hard basket, but I like a challenge.

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Here are some pictures of a S African Dauphine with a 1600 Clio motor on a 330 gearbox that was strengthened the normal 16 TS way and I think he he machined the side shaft and housing to take another bearing on the u-joint side. That is also a big help to the 16 TS internals if you really have that much hp.

    Frans.
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  17. #17
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    Default Handling !!

    Hi
    Its been a while since I was in these old vehicles so my memory is probably sketchy and patchy. However why let that stop me

    The 8s and 10s were a sweet vehicle. As others have said, a few sensible mods and they feel really good. Light responsive and plenty of "feel". However there is an elephant in the room. The swing axles can be unforgiving if provoked. The faster you go the more you skate on the edge. Your car, your choice.

    However if you were going to do a modern performance engine and the work entailed therein, why would you stop with the 1950s suspension. Put a modern design rear suspension in as well. That way you may get to enjoy it for longer.
    Jaahn

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