XN 1 engine
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Thread: XN 1 engine

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    XN 1 engine

    I have re built three of the XN1 engines. On each, I have found that No 1 and 2 cylinder have always come off worst? Anyone know more about why that end is higher stressed? question

    Als

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  2. #2
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    In what way do you mean 'come off worst'?

    One I found had no piston left in number one, another had cracks in pistons 2 & 3.

    This is numbering them from the front, not the French method of numbering from the flywheel.

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! aquinian's Avatar
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    AlsPug504:
    I have re built three of the XN1 engines. On each, I have found that No 1 and 2 cylinder have always come off worst? Anyone know more about why that end is higher stressed? question

    Als
    I bought my 505 SR wagon a few weeks ago sight-unseen from an Egyptian in Kalgoorlie, and had it trucked to Perth. You might call me brave.

    But it was so cheap it was worth the risk. Anyway, the reason it was cheap was that it had what was described as a "blown engine." I tried to ascertain how "blown" the motor really was but his English deteriorated each time I broached the subject.

    Anyway, it really was blown. There is a tennis-ball sized hole in the block next to the number 2 big-end journal. And the pieces of the block were actually sitting in the engine bay! You can put them together like a jig-saw puzzle and see the point of impact. Cute.

    The conrod was entirely absent. Who knows where it went. The journal is bare - but the cap was in the sump, looking perfectly serviceable. The piston sits at an angle, protruding half an inch or so above the block. The head appears to have survived, although I wouldn't use it again without some serious testing first!

    The amount of oil around the engine bay and under the car was astonishing. And all covered in red goldfields dirt. Lovely stuff.

    I'll be borrowing a digital camera from a friend soon, so I'll take some shots of this rather unique (for a Pug) engine, and post them for your edification.

    I was so fascinated by what could have caused this demolition job that I telephoned the former owner and asked him to describe the experience. But his English got poor again and all that I could get from him was that he was driving up from Kambalda and the engine "blew up." I only wish that somebody had been filming his face when it happened. !!!

    I used to tell people these X engines are indestructable.

    Regards,
    John Lane.

    PS The car is lovely. Dark blue/grey metallic, and with a new X engine that purrs like a kitten. The interior is pretty much perfect, too.
    Current: 406 Coupe, 504 Sedan

    Previous: 306XSi, 205GTi, 206Gti, 505 V6, 505 Wagon, 504 Sedan, 504 Wagon, 306Gti6, 306XT, 205Si, Citroen XM, Citroen Xantia

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    AlsPug504:
    I have re built three of the XN1 engines. On each, I have found that No 1 and 2 cylinder have always come off worst? Anyone know more about why that end is higher stressed? question

    Als
    Assuming you are numbering from the rear, in true French fashion, my guess would be heat issues. The firewall acts as an air dam and the space is generally more restricted down the back too, preventing airflow. Its also further from the radiator, so the coollant heats up along the way I guess.

    Just about every failed longitudinally mounted Peugeot head or piston I've seen had problems around the back end of the motor, regardless of model.

    Cheers

    Rod

    <small>[ 20 May 2003, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</small>
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  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    aquinian
    [QB] But it was so cheap it was worth the risk. Anyway, the reason it was cheap was that it had what was described as a "blown engine." I tried to ascertain how "blown" the motor really was but his English deteriorated each time I broached the subject.
    His english deteriorating? Sounds like he did not want tell you what happen! Very Sus. question


    aquinian
    [QB]The amount of oil around the engine bay and under the car was astonishing. And all covered in red goldfields dirt. Lovely stuff.

    I'll be borrowing a digital camera from a friend soon, so I'll take some shots of this rather unique (for a Pug) engine, and post them for your edification.
    Thank you. wink

    Rod Hagen
    [QB]Just about every failed longitudinally mounted Peugeot head or piston I've seen had problems around the back end of the motor, regardless of model.
    Thermal stress is what I am thinking as well Rod. Except under the conditions John mentions! The Peugeots number 1 cylinders compresion test was the lowest in all three engines prior to failure!
    In 2 cases head gasket and the liner gasket blew between cylinder 1&2 and in the third No 2 cylinder cracked.

    Some of the things I will look for on my next engine strip down will be: Water pump cavitation, areas in the head that water can not get into due to cavitation in the head.

    I notice in Zoom that one guy ran bleeds on the top of the head so any air or steam could be bleed off. One other Idea might be to make more room between Cylinder No 1 and the jacket?

    Al

  6. #6
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Al... just to clarify...

    Are you counting from the front or from the flywheel?

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    I wouldn't be surprised if some of the problems stem from poor coolant change intervals and build up of deposits in the waterways towards the rear too. Once this starts it would become a self re-inforcing problem. Less flow, more junk settles, more junk, less flow, less flow , more junk settles etc etc.

    Cheers

    Rod

    <small>[ 23 May 2003, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</small>
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  8. #8
    nJm
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    Well I think I've replaced and flushed the cooling system in my car twice in the past 11 months . Mind you, the second time I didn't have much choice as the coolant just emptied itself onto the road (burst hose) .
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    nJm:
    Well I think I've replaced and flushed the cooling system in my car twice in the past 11 months . Mind you, the second time I didn't have much choice as the coolant just emptied itself onto the road (burst hose) .
    Probably not a bad idea to do it every 6 months with an older car really, Nick unless the motor has been completely stripped and the block, head and liners thoroughly cleaned (although the theoretical interval is every two years, at least on the series 2 cars). Older cars build up accretions that grab hold of any crap floating around, and I reckon heat in one way or another kills more Peugeot engines than just about anything else. Certainly once a year is a good policy with anything over 200,000K.

    Mind you I once killed a brand new Landcruiser 4x4 motor when a radiator hose fell off as I was pasing the second of two nose to tail three trailer road trains on the Stuart Highway. Someone had decided to put a fly screen over the radiator and forgotten to do up the hose clamp. By the time they had gone past me again on the inside and I'd come to a stop it was complete junk. cry

    Cheers

    Rod

    <small>[ 23 May 2003, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</small>
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  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Ray Bell:
    Al... just to clarify...

    Are you counting from the front or from the flywheel?
    No 1 cylinder in my case and in peugoets being the one nearest the flywheel.

  11. #11
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    AlsPug504:
    Ray Bell:
    Al... just to clarify...

    Are you counting from the front or from the flywheel?
    No 1 cylinder in my case and in peugoets being the one nearest the flywheel.
    and in the states as well
    as far as i know most people count the cylinders this way round
    3 x '78 604 SL

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    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

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  12. #12
    1000+ Posts Pugnut403's Avatar
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    Hillmans are numbered that way as well.
    Pugs Rule!

    403, now sold
    404, project
    2010 Mitsubishi i MiEV electric car

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! aquinian's Avatar
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    OK, here is the only Pug engine of any type that I've ever seen in this condition.

    Firstly, a couple of pics of the block. Yes, that is the big-end journal you can see through the block. And yes again, that is a very deep gouge you can see in the crank journal surface.

    <img src="http://home.space.net.au/~nethow/blockhole.jpg" alt=" - " />

    <img src="http://home.space.net.au/~nethow/blockhole2.jpg" alt=" - " />

    And the bearing cap, found in the sump, placed on top of my vise with the pieces from the hole in the block. The pieces have been placed together like a jigsaw puzzle. You are looking at them from the same angle that the con-rod saw them. No, it is not an optical illusion that the pieces look like they form a "dish" shape. They actually do!

    <img src="http://home.space.net.au/~nethow/capblockpieces.jpg" alt=" - " />

    And again:
    <img src="http://home.space.net.au/~nethow/capblockpieces2.jpg" alt=" - " />

    And the block pieces from the outside: <img src="http://home.space.net.au/~nethow/blockpieces.jpg" alt=" - " />

    I forgot to take a picture of the piston sticking out of the top of its barrel, so I'll do that another time.

    Anybody need a 2l short motor?

    Regards,
    John Lane.
    Current: 406 Coupe, 504 Sedan

    Previous: 306XSi, 205GTi, 206Gti, 505 V6, 505 Wagon, 504 Sedan, 504 Wagon, 306Gti6, 306XT, 205Si, Citroen XM, Citroen Xantia

  14. #14
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Big end bolt failure or looseness surely isn't a result of Al's assumed 'thermal stress' is it?

    The one blown engine I've seen had the rod nearest the front pulley leaving only its big end on the scene, the whole of the rest, piston and all, were elsewhere. Most pieces of the block were retained by the bolts that attached them to the severely distended sump.

  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Just to clarify what I actually said Ray.

    AlsPug504:
    Thermal stress is what I am thinking as well Rod. Except under the conditions John mentions!</strong>

    John is aquinian! As you can see I did not imply that aquinians engine failed as a result of thermal stress!

    John, was it the big end of the con rod that punched that hole in the block?

    Looks Like that gouge in the crank may have occured when the crank struck either the bearing cap after it failed or the rod during failure.

    I am thinking that the bearing cap was loose and failed when its bolts fall out?

    Als


    Al

  16. #16
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I know it was the bolts loose in the one I got...

  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger! aquinian's Avatar
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    AlsPug504:
    John, was it the big end of the con rod that punched that hole in the block?

    Looks Like that gouge in the crank may have occured when the crank struck either the bearing cap after it failed or the rod during failure.

    I am thinking that the bearing cap was loose and failed when its bolts fall out?
    Al
    I don't know which end of the conrod hit the block. But I agree that it was probably a loose big-end bolt that caused the destruction. Or perhaps one was over-tightened and snapped.

    Ona nother note, I am astonished at the strength and precision of the PRV V6. I have spoken to several mechanics who have worked on numberous PRV engines, and none of them can ever recall having to grind a crank! Amazing.

    Regards,
    John Lane.
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    Previous: 306XSi, 205GTi, 206Gti, 505 V6, 505 Wagon, 504 Sedan, 504 Wagon, 306Gti6, 306XT, 205Si, Citroen XM, Citroen Xantia

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Pugnut403's Avatar
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    My brother bought a Falcon ute for $50 to learn to drive on ( we could'nt let him kill a Pug now, could we ) The owner said the motor was a little noisy, and probably stuffed, not a problem as we had a spare Falcon lump. We startted the motor to see just what "noisy" meant. After about 4 seconds there was a loud bang, and the conrod appeared through the block. Next stop engine crane spanner spanner
    Pugs Rule!

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  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    <strong>Ona nother note, I am astonished at the strength and precision of the PRV V6. I have spoken to several mechanics who have worked on numberous PRV engines, and none of them can ever recall having to grind a crank! Amazing.</strong>

    Yeah, the v6 bottom end is as tough as nails. The XN 1 crank is not much different it is very rare you have to grind em.

    Als

  20. #20
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I went through seven engines to find a good one when I did my rebuild two years ago Al... they're not indestructible.

    But they may also have been neglected...

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    No the XN1 is not indestructable.

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    Peugeot cranks have been good for many , many years. I completely blew a front main bearing on a 403 back in the late 60's and had to drive it home a couple of thousand k's. The noise was soemthing shocking but the crank didn't even need grinding.

    Mind you a cousin of mine actually fractured a crankshaft in his 403 while in the Flinders Ranges. Didn't realise it at the time , and got to Wagga Wagga before he rang me up. From his description we assumed it was a similar front main problem to the one I had had. (403B's ended up with a revised front main with new oil chanels after many people suffered problems at around 70,000 miles - if anyone out there has a 403B which hasn't hit 70.000 yet they should get it checked out) wink )

    I brought down a new set of bearings for him and we pulled it out on the Wagga Common, using a gum tree as an engine crane. Turned out the problem was indeed the main bearing but that the crankshaft had fractured at the front journal. For completely unrelated reasons I fairly bizzarly had a spare 403 crankshaft in the boot!

    What surprised me most was that despite this pretty drastic damage, the engine still ran, especially when you consider that this was a three bearing crankshaft. (There is a picture of it on my website)

    Cheers

    Rod

    <small>[ 31 May 2003, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</small>
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  23. #23
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Jack Nelson once told me of an engine that had driven some considerable distance with a broken crank... a 403 or 203, the crank broken in the centre main, but broken in such a way that it kept driving.

    I wonder what it was that was wrong with the engine in the ute that Rob Rowe was in that day I saw him at Northbridge?

    It was rattling a treat, had been since about Gundagai, though it was sick as he left Winton with Graham Howard's Lotus 6 mounted on the back.

    Nothing like pressing on if you can...

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