Heater? Wot Heater?
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  1. #1
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    Default Heater? Wot Heater?

    I organized a big drive down to Sydney yesterday to attend the Pug Club and it was good to meet a few of the nice blokes down there. So I threw the Smiths heater in the 203 because I was going to be very late home. However of course it didn't work.
    Never got above ice cold. I thought it must have been a bleed problem so today I've been playing with it, all day and still, only got a lukewarm core.

    So first I put the heater up where it had been on the 56er that I took it from. It was nestled out of the way up under the dash and I had to drill holes to put the water pipes through the firewall. [Bugger, now I have grommets there.]
    But after bleeding the system it still would not heat up and I was aware of what one guy had told me about the levels, so that being above the top of the radiator I decided that it should be relocated at a lower position using the original holes that are plugged with rubber grommets. So I cut these grommets open and ran the hoses and sat the smiths heater on the gearbox tunnel and bled it and it seemed to get warm but not warm enough and after once up the road it was cold again.
    OK perhaps the core is blocked although I had run a hose through it, so I put a 403 core on the hoses and this got hotter, but not enough.
    So I'm looking at the outlets I'm using from the engine, that is one comes from the side of the water pump and the other from the bottom of the radiator. I know there should be one in the back of the head but this is not fitted on this 203 head.
    There doesn't seem a really good flow from the water pump outlet and the bottom of the radiator is where the coolest water comes from I think.
    Looking at the Toyota Hilux with an awesome heater the outlets are from the thermostat and from an extra outlet just below the other one where the bottom hose runs into the head.
    I'm thinking I'd get nice hot water if I had an outlet fitted to the top tank of the radiator because that seems to be the hottest place. It's the same theory with thermosyphoning from a hot water jacket to a storage tank. You put the hot water outlet at the highest possible level. I can't believe the Froggies could produce such a bad theory in a country with ice and snow, but I spose the pommies made mini minors so anything's possible. I tend to appreciate the japs when it comes to heaters, perhaps copying them is how the froggies finally managed to get it right as the 406 heater is great too.
    No doubt the 406 will have a beaut little fine aluminium core similar to it's highly efficient radiator. Without a core like that we need to get the hottest water into it , but I also wonder about the actual flow. Wondering if it could do with a more agressive impellor in the water pump as there doesn't seem to be a lot of water travel going on. The one I have is in good condition but I'm thinking it may need some mods. Maybe that could make the car run cooler as well.
    Your thoughts please.

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  2. #2
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    CitroŽn Tragic UFO's Avatar
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    Are you sure the thermostat isn't jammed open and nothing is getting hot enough? I had a similar problem on my D last winter.
    Craig K
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    Fellow Frogger! friday403's Avatar
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    Default 203 C heater

    Yep, had that problem.

    Fitted a Smiths heater to a 203C for the Mildura - Melbourne run but it never got above luke warm. Bought gloves and a jacket ...

    friday403

  4. #4
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    Dan,
    check the water temp if you can,
    I used to run a blind over half the radiator in 403 daily driver years ago.
    in winter
    do you have have a temp guage outlet at the rear of head? can you use that ?

    had a Smiths in my 203 it worked well, pipes thru firewall were below the lip

    have unblocked heaters by filling with water and pulsing 15lb air from compressor in reverse direction

    good luck

  5. #5
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    Trouble is the heater sensor is right next to the thermostat which is unusual, but it now reads an almost constant 180C since I've sorted a few things. I have a modified 406 thermostat in there which seems to do the job.
    No I'm very inclined to the view that the bottom radiator outlet is a bad choice for decent heating. It is the coolest part of the system.
    Colin , no there's no rear temp sensor but the placement originally was below the lip as you say. It's in a square panel that looks like the right spot, but it's higher than the top of the radiator when fitted there so I was seeing if lowering made any diff, but it doesn't.
    Last edited by luthier; 7th June 2012 at 06:41 PM.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    my mother had a genuine (yes there are/were plenty of them around) 203 heater in her 203

    now it had a 403 engine and it worked like a clock, the heater in perfect condition never really got very warm at all

    they are pretty much useless, why ? i have no idea

    the 403 heater is a better heater, not great but better

    it seems it wasn't untill the 404/504 did peugeot actually get heaters into cars that dissipated enough heat into the cabin to warm the car

    from 504 onwards they hit the nail on the head
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

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  7. #7
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    Although my water pump looks pretty good I'm now wondering if I could do with a reco one. I'll send one to that bloke in Qld for the works. Perhaps that might help.
    It's a strange thing about heaters and pugs. Some swear that they had a good one but the majority including me never had any joy with 403 or 203 in that department.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo View Post
    my mother had a genuine (yes there are/were plenty of them around) 203 heater in her 203

    now it had a 403 engine and it worked like a clock, the heater in perfect condition never really got very warm at all

    they are pretty much useless, why ? i have no idea

    the 403 heater is a better heater, not great but better

    it seems it wasn't untill the 404/504 did peugeot actually get heaters into cars that dissipated enough heat into the cabin to warm the car

    from 504 onwards they hit the nail on the head
    Righton. Which is why I'm thinking of stretching the boundaries and design specs. I just reckon they must have seen the light about where they took the hot water from as well as more efficient cores.

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luthier View Post
    No I'm very inclined to the view that the bottom radiator outlet is a bad choice for decent heating. It is the coolest part of the system.
    Spot on.


    The line going into the water pump will be the suck side or outlet (water should be sucked through the heater) and the heater inlet should come form as close to the (engine side of) thermostat as possible.
    Another way of saying that is the inlet should be in a high pressure zone and the outlet in a low pressure zone.
    Your connections are both low pressure zones hence no flow.

    Jo

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    Spot on.


    The line going into the water pump will be the suck side or outlet (water should be sucked through the heater) and the heater inlet should come form as close to the (engine side of) thermostat as possible.
    Another way of saying that is the inlet should be in a high pressure zone and the outlet in a low pressure zone.
    Your connections are both low pressure zones hence no flow.

    Jo
    Thanks Jo, so what about a new outlet from the top tank instead? It would be the least invasive place to do it I think.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by luthier View Post
    Thanks Jo, so what about a new outlet from the top tank instead? It would be the least invasive place to do it I think.
    Its not ideal, as you'll get virtually no coolant flow until the thermostat opens.

    Best is to tap into the coolant on the engine side of the thermostat.

    I dont know the layout of the pug motor so can not make any clear suggestions as to where to pull the hot coolant from,but if it were an inline thermostat mounted in the top hose, you could make up a T piece and place it in the top hose before the thermostat.

    Jo

  12. #12
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    Wel, I've never had a 203 heater, so I don't know. Lots of experience with 403. Early model with a brand new 20 pound genuine heater - good, warm air. 403 with old heater - endless trouble, running cold, driving with one hand in your coat pocket in the Pentlands, 403B heater - great. My feeling is the cores block up quickly and flushing doesn't seem to do it. The 203 flow system at least the early model, was odd, with the flow coming from where the drain cock for the block is. My 504 heater got worse over the years and I was never able to bring it back.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    Its not ideal, as you'll get virtually no coolant flow until the thermostat opens.

    Best is to tap into the coolant on the engine side of the thermostat.

    I dont know the layout of the pug motor so can not make any clear suggestions as to where to pull the hot coolant from,but if it were an inline thermostat mounted in the top hose, you could make up a T piece and place it in the top hose before the thermostat.

    Jo
    The confusing part here is that the inlet that already exists comes from the engine side of the thermostat at the water pump. The thermo sits in the top hose going into the water pump and this outlet is slightly below but on the opposite side of the pump.
    This is what you say is the sucking outlet.
    Therefore I would think if it were sucked straight from the top tank it would flow well.
    The original other place to suck from was the back of the head but that is not optioned on this head.
    Another possibility would be the outlet on the block which as standard is a plug held by a flexible rod that can easily be undone to allow complete block drainage.
    On my engine I have a thread and screw in plug here. I could quite easily convert this plug to a connection tube if it were a reasonable idea.

    I wonder if I could do a simple experiment of sticking the hose that went to the bottom of the radiator into the filler hole of the radiator to see if it flows that way. It's a very low pressure system anyway so whether the cap is on or off shouldn't make much difference.

    Edit
    You could be spoton here again Jo. There is an outlet kind of where you describe that's been tapped in to take the temp gauge sender. As this seems to heat up pretty quick and then remain at a stable temp it's probably an ideal spot. I'll just need to plug in a bit further round. Hmmm, my water pump is going to be an article of interest.
    Last edited by luthier; 7th June 2012 at 10:16 PM.

  14. #14
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    The 203 took it from the bottom of the radiator to the drain plug in the block. The early 403 took it from the head and the bottom of the radiator. The 403b had it from the water pump to where? The head? I forget. You never knew what you'd find with a 403. It was always important to have the thermostat working, even with a good heater. The cooling system is qute simple and unsophisticated which is a good thing in most cases. The heater system on the 203 had been used since 1935 on the 402. The most powerful heaters around were on the Russian cars (designed to keep it +25C when it was -25C outside) but they rely on high operating temps that would kill a 203 plus a bypass system that actually cuts the radiator out of the flow. I was once tempted to put one of their cores into the 203 which would allow it to drive with the sunroof open in winter but the water going in would be too cool.

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luthier View Post
    Edit
    You could be spoton here again Jo. There is an outlet kind of where you describe that's been tapped in to take the temp gauge sender. As this seems to heat up pretty quick and then remain at a stable temp it's probably an ideal spot. I'll just need to plug in a bit further round. Hmmm, my water pump is going to be an article of interest.
    sounds good.
    I get a little confused with your description of ins and outs.

    The water pump sucks, be it from a radiator, a heater,a bypass or a manifold warming line.
    As you have a line on the water pump for the heater, you are in luck.

    With one end of the heater loop plugged into the water pump being sucked, the other end of the loop must be plugged into a high pressure zone, the bit of engine between the water pump and the thermostat in order for coolant to flow well.

    It doesn't matter to the heater where you plug it in the engine block, it will flow plumbed like you describe.

    Jo
    Last edited by jo proffi; 7th June 2012 at 11:15 PM.

  16. #16
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    Success!!!

    Here's a shot of the connection that sucks as Jo says. It was always one of my connections, but I have two other water pumps which don't have this. There is also a small outlet on the top of the pump which would have fed the hot water jacket on a 403 carb. So yes it's a 403 water pump. I have now used that small outlet to house my temp sender which I expect will show lower temps.


    Now here's a shot of the other side of the water pump where you'll see a small outlet in between the two big hoses. This is the spot where the temp gauge had been tapped into and by a fluke the thread was the same as a fitting I already had. It is directly below the thermostat. With this connected the Smiths heater runs hot!!! It did require bleeding which I did by taking the hose off from the top heater connection at the firewall and blowing through it till coolant came out of the heater. Back on and in less than a minute both heater hoses were nice and warm.


  17. #17
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    That's the 403b water pump housing with the heater outlet that replaced the radiator outlet. After a time spares only stocked this type and when fitted to early models or 203's had rubber caps on the outlets.

  18. #18
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    Anyone know if diesel water pumps fit on petrol 403/203 heads? They seem to have the right outlets for decent heating. And from the Argentine they are only $79 as opposed to 278 euros from francais.


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