Nothing is going right lately... Starting problem!!
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! BradlehGordz's Avatar
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    Default Nothing is going right lately... Starting problem!!

    Well, my car didn't want to start this morning and I was late for school because I had to try and organise a lift
    I thought it was from a flat battery, but it started when I got home? Tried to start it again... And nothing!
    Swapped battery's... Nothing again...
    Have power inside, so I am starting to think it's the starter motor?
    I don't think it has actually gone, I think it might have something blocking the earth?
    Where is the earth to the starter motor on a 306 gti?
    I changed the gearbox oil yesterday and spilt a bit, have a feeling this is causing resistance on the earth for the starter motor?

    Someone please help!

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    Fellow Frogger! BradlehGordz's Avatar
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    And to top it off... I posted in the wrong section!
    Well, I suppose all I can do now is laugh... haha
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  3. #3
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BradlehGordz View Post
    And to top it off... I posted in the wrong section!
    Well, I suppose all I can do now is laugh... haha
    It's not all bad, for starters I've moved this thread into the Peugeot forum

    So, a little more info, when you turn the key to crank the motor does it crank? Or are you just getting a click, and dash lights glowing?

    Cheers
    Chris
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

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    Fellow Frogger! BradlehGordz's Avatar
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    Yeah, just the click, and the dash lights are on
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  5. #5
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    Try jump starting from another car and see how easily the starter cranks. Maybe, both batteries you have tried are discharged? Don't always trust the magic eye. You can have a dead / shorted cell in a battery and the eye still shows green because it in a different cell.

    There is apparently an trick for battery 'reconditioning' and that is to drop it onto a board from about knee height - the case is unlikely to break, but it's meant to break up some of the deposits causing the short. I guess you have nothing to lose if it's a dead lead acid-battery, but it's obviously not going to work with a gel battery.

    Earth is usually via a strap between the engine and the body. Make sure it's still connected and not corroded. Similarly, check the earth lead connection to the body at the battery.

    NRMA ... ???

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! BradlehGordz's Avatar
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    I have used a battery from dad's car and jumped it and the same thing happened
    It's looking like I will call the NRMA
    Will be checking the earths when I have spare time, school is taking a lot at the moment
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  7. #7
    1000+ Posts Andrew Ch's Avatar
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    If your car was starting okay before the oil change then I would definitely start checking earth points, electrical plugs and connections. It could be possible you disturbed something accidently. Anyway it always better to rule these out first before you start looking at mechanical ( expensive ) stuff so good luck.

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    Maybe, the starter or it's wiring then. You could check the connections for corrosion and burning as either would cause a high resistance and poor cranking regardless of the battery condition. You could borrow or buy an inexpensive multimeter and take a few measurements. You can get something simple for about $20, perhaps less.

    I'm not sure what your car has, but some of the earlier starters have solenoids that you can take apart and clean. There is usually a copper contact plate in the solenoid and that can burn. In some cases, you can turn the plate around and it then works again. If it's diagnosed as the starter and you need a new one, try pulling the old one apart to see if you can fix it - oil contamination, carbon buildup, worn brushes or failed solenoid. You have nothing to lose as you would be up for a starter anyway.

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! BradlehGordz's Avatar
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    It started once after school, with ease only took about 1-2 turnovers and started... But after that nothing
    So I would say connections and earths like Andrew was saying?

    And thanks David will try and narrow it down, and if it is the starter, I will try cleaning it
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    If you have very worn starter brushes it will behave this way. I've had similar problems with other cars and ended up fitting new brushes. It isn't too hard on the earlier starters but I haven't done anything more modern than an 85 505. Caravelle might sell brushes for it. Obviously a lot cheaper than a reco starter. Good luck.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by luthier View Post
    If you have very worn starter brushes it will behave this way. I've had similar problems with other cars and ended up fitting new brushes. It isn't too hard on the earlier starters but I haven't done anything more modern than an 85 505. Caravelle might sell brushes for it. Obviously a lot cheaper than a reco starter. Good luck.
    Probably the starter, just get another from a do it yourself wrecker, $25 or so.
    These FWD starters are very good in my experience so don't bother with getting one recoed.
    Otherwise you can get new ones at a good price from Caravelle or EAI.
    Graham

  12. #12
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Ch View Post
    If your car was starting okay before the oil change then I would definitely start checking earth points, electrical plugs and connections. It could be possible you disturbed something accidently. Anyway it always better to rule these out first before you start looking at mechanical ( expensive ) stuff so good luck.
    +1

    If the starter was giving no indication that it was about to fail before the gearbox oil change there is a good likelihood that you have, as suggested either disturbed or dislodged a connection in the area, or possibly have oil seeping onto the starter motor?, i.e. not just these two main connections.

    To the best of my knowledge the starter is earthed via it's mounts to the engine block, so I would doubt an earthing problem. There will be two positive connections, one to the starter motor a thick cable and one for the solenoid smaller cable. Have a good look around the area you were working in and make sure all connectors are clean and making good contacts.

    I would start by getting some degreaser into the area where you spilled oil - once that had had a chance to do it's job, try starting the car with a fully charged battery, you may have to turn the key back and forth a several times before you get a result.

    If you don't get a result, then you can spend your dollars on a replacement starter...

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! BradlehGordz's Avatar
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    I'll hit up the degreasing tomorrow and look at the connections
    Thanks heaps guys!
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    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BradlehGordz View Post
    I'll hit up the degreasing tomorrow and look at the connections
    Thanks heaps guys!
    How'd you go, did you fire up the starter motor or have to fit a replacement?

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! BradlehGordz's Avatar
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    Well, after in looked at the connections and replaced the battery terminals, could hear the starter trying to turn...
    So dad lined the starter up with a pole and gave it a couple of whacks and it came alive!
    I would put it down to bad connections and a sticky starter motor? hasn't done it since but!
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  16. #16
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    I was going to suggest hitting it with a heavy something or other that is not going to damage it.

    This is a classic symptom of worn down brushes on their last legs. If you're lucky (or unlucky if you are so inclined to think) it may be that they are not worn down, but "hung" i.e. don't slide freely down their holders and contact on the rotor is erratic.

    Time (or a strip down) will tell. I would guess if the brushes are worn, the problem will return and the bashing trick won't work anymore.
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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    I agree with schlitzaugen.

    Carrying around a hammer will work for at least a few weeks (if not a couple of months ! ), but it's not good for the copper contacts on the armature to not have the graphite brushes connecting to them properly. They tend to get pitted from the low voltage/high amperage electricity arcing over. And there is no fix for a pitted armature, not even machining.

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! BradlehGordz's Avatar
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    Well, it's been running for a week since the first hit! Haha
    So I guess I'll see how much longer I can get out of this starter and hopefully get a spare replacement in time!

    Thanks for the help
    P-Plater

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  19. #19
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Just get some brushes and be ready to drop them in. I usually do the bearings, lube everything up and give the comm a skim too when this happens so I don't have to get in there again any time soon. It's all easy work (if you know what parts you need).
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  20. #20
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    My guess, and hate to be the bearer of bad news, is that it is a Valeo starter that has the magnets glued on the inside of the housing. The glue eventually ages and the magnets start to let go. Leading to you learning how to replace the starter motor.
    Craig K
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  21. #21
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    That is possible too, (happened on wife's Mi16) but it is not going to be rectified by the use of a hammer or bashing. When they eventually go, there is absolutely no cranking at all and the current drain on the battery can be in the order of hundreds of amps. The starter gets hot quickly.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! BradlehGordz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    That is possible too, (happened on wife's Mi16) but it is not going to be rectified by the use of a hammer or bashing. When they eventually go, there is absolutely no cranking at all and the current drain on the battery can be in the order of hundreds of amps. The starter gets hot quickly.
    Oh wow... Best idea i suppose at the moment would to look for a new starter i would assume! Haha
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  23. #23
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    If you have good access, you may be able to remove just the brush holder to inspect it. Otherwise remove the starter. You will probably find the brushes are worn, there's a lot of carbon dust in there, which can short it out, and the contact segments need dressing/undercutting. As the brushes are dragged over the contact segments, they wear it down and drag the copper slightly, so that the edge of one contact can be electrically connected to its neighbour. Undercutting just tidies up the contacts and makes sure the resin holding them together is a fraction below the contact surface.

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BradlehGordz View Post
    Oh wow... Best idea i suppose at the moment would to look for a new starter i would assume! Haha
    I don't think that is your problem. Wife's starter went from not cranking sometimes to not cranking at all in no time flat (days). It completely died all of a sudden after a short drive and that is when we pulled it out and saw what happened.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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