advice on 205 cheapish transplant
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    Default advice on 205 cheapish transplant

    Hello,

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    I have a 205 with a hotted up 8v with dodgy wiring that recently decided to let the water enter the oil I had been wanting to put an aftermarket ecu on it but since it has issues i am wondering if its best to just transplant a 16v.

    The thinking being that if i already have to rewire and pull half the engine apart i might as well ditch the engine at the same time for one with a loom and different (i hesitate to say new) ECU and sensors.

    Currently in the parts section is an mi16 engine with loom, ecu, exhaust manifold with wedge and an original inlet manifold. Needs only a lower engine mount, shortened inlet, a couple of hoses and an air filter solution to install AFAIK.

    Also on ebay is a gti6 engine (if i'm remembering my numbers correctly).
    engine unknown kms - supposedly running well

    i'm considering getting one shipped to a local mechanic who should be able to do the physical install for me, then do the wiring at least myself. I simply don't have the workshop to do the physical transplant.

    The path of least resistance it seems to me is the mi16, it was a complete running car, PeterT can cut the inlet and then its "just" a matter of stitching the 2 looms together. Downside that engine is in Melbourne, i am in Qld, so prob ~$250- if i can get the seller to take it to a depot, possibly unto $400- without.

    While the gti-6 is a nicer later engine it appears it is a short engine and would require aftermarket ECU and would even with a PeterT exhaust chock require more pain to fit, so more $$

    Does this seems a viable plan? I've read a few transplant threads and the mi16 ones haven't had too many issues from my impression.

    I suppose any thoughts on where to get a decent long engine and loom in S.E. Qld would be good.

    I suppose i could just buy a commodore but after loaning a 94 the other day (first time i'd ever driven one) that was described as being in fantastic condition it isn't an alternative. Wow, what a boat.

    Cheers in advance
    Shane
    1990 205gti 8v, sv1000, zx6, sv650, zxr750, rgv250, austin 1800, fiat 124ac, fiat x1/9, 76 rd350, 124bc, lancia beta, yz125G, yz80h, yz50g, gtmx80c

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! DjB8V's Avatar
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    This stating the bleedingly obvious but engine transplants to be done correctly aren't cheap. There is a S1 Mi16 for $800. You could use the transplant bits and sell the rest off as parts.

    Read up on he gtidrivers ebsite on the changeover and keep us posted.



    Chris


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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts Isis's Avatar
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    Dont ask me because I bought my car converted. That said, I think you are embarking on a new build altogether and the result could be a car that you never really want to sell.

    So, whatever you do, aim to do it well and properly. It might mean saving for a bit longer perhaps. There will be a bunch of extra little costs while the engine is out either way.

    Sure the GTi6 engine is more modern etc but the Mi engine is a cracker if in good condition.
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  4. #4
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    That engine on ebay is not a GTi6 engine. That one is an XU10J4R, RFV. The GTi6 engine is an XU10J4RS, RFS.

    That ebay engine is only about 97kW, well below a good S1 Mi16.
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  5. #5
    1000+ Posts cav91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    That engine on ebay is not a GTi6 engine. That one is an XU10J4R, RFV. The GTi6 engine is an XU10J4RS, RFS.

    That ebay engine is only about 97kW, well below a good S1 Mi16.
    I was about to say the same thing.
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    1000+ Posts BIGRR's Avatar
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    1.
    Quoting DjB8v: This stating the bleeding obvious but engine transplants to be done correctly aren't cheap.

    2.
    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    That engine on ebay is not a GTi 6 engine. That one is an XU10J4R, RFV. The GTi6 engine is an XU10J4RS, RFS.

    That ebay engine is only about 97kW, well below a good S1 Mi16.
    3.
    My 205 is fitted with a basically standard XU10J4R, RFV (bigger injectors, haltech ECU and MSD ignition).

    Standing 1/4 15.191seconds and will pull 5600 rpm in 5th (220+kph).

    The conversions fitted with "good S1 Mi16s" must really fly ,

    though I am still waiting to see some of the Australian standing 1/4 times posted here .
    Present fleet:-
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    Peugeot 92' 205 Gti
    Renault 72' 16TS from new
    Renault 69' 10
    Renault 71' 10s
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    "Be reasonable do it my way!"


  7. #7
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BIGRR View Post
    1.
    Quoting DjB8v: This stating the bleeding obvious but engine transplants to be done correctly aren't cheap.

    2.


    3.
    My 205 is fitted with a basically standard XU10J4R, RFV (bigger injectors, haltech ECU and MSD ignition).

    Standing 1/4 15.191seconds and will pull 5600 rpm in 5th (220+kph).

    The conversions fitted with "good S1 Mi16s" must really fly ,

    though I am still waiting to see some of the Australian standing 1/4 times posted here .
    I reckon bigger injectors, aftermarket ECU and ignition is getting away from the intent of this post - 'cheapish' conversion.

    The choke points to making power on the RFV are the small valves and tame cams. Good for low down torque and good economy, but not so good for big power top end. Rectifying either of these problems also takes it well outside of the scope of a 'cheapish' conversion.

    For $750 for an unknown XU10J4R, or $800 for an unknown XU9J4, I know which one I would go with for maximum bang-for-buck!
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  8. #8
    1000+ Posts Andrew Ch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DjB8V View Post
    This stating the bleedingly obvious but engine transplants to be done correctly aren't cheap. There is a S1 Mi16 for $800. You could use the transplant bits and sell the rest off as parts.

    Read up on he gtidrivers ebsite on the changeover and keep us posted.



    Chris
    + 1 on what he said....

    Seems to me that the better purchase is the whole car rather than an engine. You can put one next to the other and swap bits to complete the work which requires a combination of both cars and saves time.

    The MI16 also comes complete with spares as well, what you don't use can sold to recoup some of your costs making it a win win purchase.

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Just make sure you don't put a dud motor in. Give it a compression test first.

    '92 205 Mi16
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  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! DjB8V's Avatar
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    Dont worry Reggie.

    I'll be running a 1/4 once mine is all fitted out.

    I'll be chasing Ash



    Chris


    205GTI - 8 valve, single cam coolness.



  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! SilverGTi_6's Avatar
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    If it helps you decide, I have had both engines in a 205 GTi (as standard engines on standard ECU) and IMO Gti6 has MUCH more pull. Night and day difference.

    Conversion wise, there wasn't much to it really. No shortening inlet manifold, no exhaust wedge, standard lower engine mount, with one of magic's smaller top engine mounts. 'Bolts straight in' so to speak



    Like others have said, I wouldn't want to do either conversion on the cheap though. Especially when you should consider things like Quaife LSD, brakes etc also.
    Last edited by SilverGTi_6; 24th May 2012 at 10:07 PM.
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  12. #12
    1000+ Posts BIGRR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    I reckon bigger injectors, aftermarket ECU and ignition is getting away from the intent of this post - 'cheapish' conversion.

    The choke points to making power on the RFV are the small valves and tame cams. Good for low down torque and good economy, but not so good for big power top end. Rectifying either of these problems also takes it well outside of the scope of a 'cheapish' conversion.

    For $750 for an unknown XU10J4R, or $800 for an unknown XU9J4, I know which one I would go with for maximum bang-for-buck!
    Agree with the above, though the Dyno man told me that the injectors were not required the bigger ones just don't work as hard as the standard ones and that seeing that we did not alter the cams the standard 306 ECU would have performed better than the Haltech. Though the $100 MSD took about 0.2 seconds off the 1/4 time.
    So really the engine is a "basically standard" XU10J4R.
    You are also correct about the torque the car has guts pulls in 5th (.757) from 1500RPM but Hp is finished at 5600RPM.
    You could pick up a low mileage factory built XU10J4R, though I doubt that you could do that with a XU9J4.
    And as Silver GTi 6 says "Conversion wise, there wasn't much to it really. No shortening inlet manifold, no exhaust wedge, standard lower engine mount, with one of magic's smaller top engine mounts. 'Bolts straight in' so to speak "
    Present fleet:-
    Peugeot 93' 205 Gti 16v
    Peugeot 73' 504 Ti from new
    Peugeot 08' 407 Hdi Coupe from new

    Previous fleet:-
    Peugeot 95' 605 Sv
    Peugeot 92' 205 Gti
    Renault 72' 16TS from new
    Renault 69' 10
    Renault 71' 10s
    Renault 68' 10 from new

    "Be reasonable do it my way!"


  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! renn_205's Avatar
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    I'd go the newer engine. The older one will just cause more grief sooner!

    As Peter said, test it. Actually Peter was telling me that he was able to get a heap of power out of a J4R, I was surprised!

    I don't reckon you can "cheap" these conversions, very easily. Those prices for the engines are fantastic, however! I'm jealous.

    Yeah "they bolt straight in"... But it's all the little things that make it all happen that add up. getting the clutch working, drive shafts, hubs. Fixing all that crap that annoys you... upgrading the brakes, converting to rear discs, MC, LSD... It all adds up...

    And it's worth it!

    You could probably do the whole thing from $2.5k to $5k depending if you do the extras... If you could do it for somewhere in the middle, that's damn good value.

    I love my 16v, and a newer one is sensible... But we need more tough 8v's!





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  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! renn_205's Avatar
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    Wait, you said "cheapish".

    Well, that's a WHOLE other budget we're talking!


    Renn
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    1000+ Posts Richard W's Avatar
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    Re the question of Mi16 vs GTI6:
    • I thought the GTI6 engine is iron block and heavier and the traditional wisdom was that it was better for handling to stick to the alloy block Mi16 engine. Does the extra weight make any real difference to handling in a 205, or is the idea that you make up for it by ditching the AC compressor?
    • Can you keep the AC if you want to with either of these conversions? Is one easier than the other in that regard?
    • If we are talking 'cheapish', there seem to be lots of cheap Mi16 donor cars about, but where do you get a super cheap GTI6?
    • GTI6 means a change in capacity from standard. Does that make rego more difficult?
    Does all that mean stick with Mi16 for a 'cheapish' conversion??

    Richard

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! DjB8V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by renn_205 View Post
    ... But we need more tough 8v's!





    Renn

    Mine isn't too far away


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  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger! renn_205's Avatar
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    The age old debate...

    My 16v205 is an iron block from a 306 s16, (XU10J4).

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard W View Post
    Re the question of Mi16 vs GTI6:
    [LIST][*]I thought the GTI6 engine is iron block and heavier and the traditional wisdom was that it was better for handling to stick to the alloy block Mi16 engine. Does the extra weight make any real difference to handling in a 205, or is the idea that you make up for it by ditching the AC compressor?
    On GTiDrivers it was established that the XU10 is 20kgs heavier.

    Quote Originally Posted by [*
    Can you keep the AC if you want to with either of these conversions? Is one easier than the other in that regard?
    I've still got AC. But the standard AC is useless when you really need it! Little to no difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by [*
    If we are talking 'cheapish', there seem to be lots of cheap Mi16 donor cars about, but where do you get a super cheap GTI6?[*]GTI6 means a change in capacity from standard. Does that make rego more difficult?
    Not in NSW. It's is still a 2.0L hatch.

    Quote Originally Posted by [/LIST
    Does all that mean stick with Mi16 for a 'cheapish' conversion??
    If the engine is better and cheaper, I guess?

    But what about bringing the compression up, etc?

    [QUOTE=
    Richard[/QUOTE]




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  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by renn_205 View Post
    As Peter said, test it. Actually Peter was telling me that he was able to get a heap of power out of a J4R, I was surprised!
    I have read with a gti6 inlet and aftermarket ECU they produce within 10hp of the j4rs.

    Quote Originally Posted by renn_205 View Post
    I don't reckon you can "cheap" these conversions, very easily. Those prices for the engines are fantastic, however! I'm jealous.

    Yeah "they bolt straight in"... But it's all the little things that make it all happen that add up. getting the clutch working, drive shafts, hubs. Fixing all that crap that annoys you... upgrading the brakes, converting to rear discs, MC, LSD... It all adds up...
    currently it has a standard rebuilt master cyl, callipers, beam and drums, neoprene bushes, aftermarket springs, ok shocks and recent driveshafts.

    i'm fairly ok with the chassis, its just the "tough" but not running well 8v and wiring that is the issue.

    a nice AF'er in SE QLD has offered me a good mi16 engine, box, shortened inlet and bent exhaust and even a recommendation on a good installer.

    an LSD would be a good addition. i had been thinking about keeping the be3 in it, undecided as yet.
    1990 205gti 8v, sv1000, zx6, sv650, zxr750, rgv250, austin 1800, fiat 124ac, fiat x1/9, 76 rd350, 124bc, lancia beta, yz125G, yz80h, yz50g, gtmx80c

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! DjB8V's Avatar
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    A Quaife and a gearbox built by Adrian W would be a good investment if you plain of going a twin cam. Have a look in my build thread and I think there is a list of the ratios used. Its not as expensive as you think.

    Mi16s internals make for a tough 8V .... hahaha.



    Chris


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  20. #20
    1000+ Posts FIVEDOOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spar View Post
    a nice AF'er in SE QLD has offered me a good mi16 engine, box, shortened inlet and bent exhaust and even a recommendation on a good installer.
    Is the installer the Pug mechanic next door?

    Good luck

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverGTi_6 View Post
    If it helps you decide, I have had both engines in a 205 GTi (as standard engines on standard ECU) and IMO Gti6 has MUCH more pull. Night and day difference.

    Conversion wise, there wasn't much to it really. No shortening inlet manifold, no exhaust wedge, standard lower engine mount, with one of magic's smaller top engine mounts. 'Bolts straight in' so to speak

    Like others have said, I wouldn't want to do either conversion on the cheap though. Especially when you should consider things like Quaife LSD, brakes etc also.
    That looks like a lot of work there, what is involved in that transplant? Doesn't look like there's too much room between that inlet and the radiator, did you have to move the radiator at all?
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  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! DjB8V's Avatar
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    Can you tilt the radiator forward a wee bit clear the inlet?




    Chris


    205GTI - 8 valve, single cam coolness.



  23. #23
    PDJ
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    I think radiators are just lowered a bit to give the clearance needed.

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