505 ZDJL auto - starter boost relay fitment
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  1. #1
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    Default 505 ZDJL auto - starter boost relay fitment

    Hi Guys,

    Yet another version of the starter boost relay modification circuit for the 505 with ZDJL engine and automatic transmission. Pretty sure this will work and it preserves the park/neutral safety interlock.

    It requires the addition of 2 relays, the cutting of 3 wires at the existing starter relay, the cutting of one wire at the ignition switch, and connections at 8 points on the car wiring. Seems a bit complicated but I can't think of a simpler way (apart from something sensible like keeping it all standard, cleaning all the harness connectors and replacing a worn out ignition switch ).

    PDF of the circuit is attached showing all the current flows during engine start and during engine run.

    Would appreciate your thoughts and comments. Will attach a PDF of the standard circuit current flows during engine start and during engine run in a new message for comparison.

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    Standard circuit current flows attached below for comparison
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    Default looks complicated

    Quote Originally Posted by wagon505 View Post
    Hi Guys,

    Yet another version of the starter boost relay modification circuit for the 505 with ZDJL engine and automatic transmission. Pretty sure this will work and it preserves the park/neutral safety interlock.

    It requires the addition of 2 relays, the cutting of 3 wires at the existing starter relay, the cutting of one wire at the ignition switch, and connections at 8 points on the car wiring. Seems a bit complicated but I can't think of a simpler way (apart from something sensible like keeping it all standard, cleaning all the harness connectors and replacing a worn out ignition switch ).

    PDF of the circuit is attached showing all the current flows during engine start and during engine run.

    Would appreciate your thoughts and comments. Will attach a PDF of the standard circuit current flows during engine start and during engine run in a new message for comparison.
    I used the KISS principal, used the wire from starter solenoid to one side of the relay coil (85) the other side of the coil (86) to earth, power from battery to terminal 30 of the relay, 87 goes to starter solenoid. All the saftey lockouts are still in place.
    cheers Pete

    I am gunna get another 403 on the road........one day

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    Unfortunately the KISS method doesn't work on an EFI 505. Tried it first as it seems to work on most other cars !! If you use this method the starter will not disengage after the motor starts. Also some of the fuel injection system wiring is connected to the starter solenoid wire so if you disconnect it from the solenoid and connect it to something else (eg. starter boost relay) the engine will not run properly even though it will start. Others have experienced the same issues when doing the KISS mod. (search threads under 505 starter).

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    I'm sorry, W505, Pete's suggestion does work. Some while ago I used that circuit with a FUSED relay on my '92 wagon successfully until I tackled the main cause. Perhaps yours didn't because you wired in a relay with terminal 87A - which remains live in believed quiescent mode.
    The main cause of reluctant starter operation is the HT bridging bar in the solenoid. After extended usage this bar becomes heavily pitted and often convex.
    The cure is to strip the solenoid, clean and true up the bar -- or just turn it over. A relay then becomes a bonus.
    Pavel

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    Checked the wiring of my peviously used KISS harness again. Definately wired correctly using terminal 87 output from the relay not 87a. Did Peugeot change the engine harness design at some point ? Was your car auto or manual trans ? A guy on this forum in the UK experienced the same problem as me when he tried the KISS method.

    Did you use an unprotected relay or one with diode protection? I used one with resistor protection so maybe this caused it ??

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    Had another think. I suspect the KISS method will work if you use a DIODE protected relay. The diode will conduct during current backflow after the engine starts so there is zero volatage across the relay coil so that it remains de-energised.


    Still not sure if the fuel injection system will operate as designed under these conditions as there are quite a few fuel injection system wires tapped into the solenoid feed wire and I'm not sure what they all do.


    Will give the KISS method another go using a DIODE protected relay instead of a resistor protected one and see what happens

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    Quote Originally Posted by wagon505 View Post

    Will give the KISS method another go using a DIODE protected relay instead of a resistor protected one and see what happens
    Mmmm, I think that's what I tried but it didn't work. The car started no problem, but the starter motor ran-on after the engine was running. But I'm sh!t at electrics so may have got something wrong.




    Mike.
    Started out with nothing, still got most of it left.

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    Mike,

    My experience with the KISS mod. was exactly the same as yours. I don't think you wired it incorrectly. Visually it's difficult to tell whether relays are diode or resistor protected or unprotected, usually you have to check by part number. You could also check whether the relay you have is diode protected by using a multimeter. For a diode protected relay when an ohmeter is connected between relay pins 85 and 86 there should be different resistances depending on the order of connection of the test leads. Would be great if you could try the KISS mod. again with a confirmed DIODE protected relay. Unfortunately I won't have the opportunity to play around with my car again for another week or so.

    If the KISS mod. works I think it is more by accident rather than good design. The solenoid wire seems to present a path to ground for the fuel injection system after the engine starts. If you replace the starter solenoid coil with a diode or relay coil (as you do with the KISS mod.) you are changing the resistance path to ground and I am not sure whether this affects the fuel injection system. If you start the car and then pull off the solenoid wire and take it for a drive the car doesn't run properly so there's definately something more to it than meets the eye. I also measured 6V at the solenoid feed wire after the engine starts so this why the relay stays energised after the engine starts (unless you use a diode protected relay ??).

    By comparison the "complicated" starter boost relay method effectively starts the engine by connecting a jumper wire between the battery and the solenoid connector with the starter solenoid feed wire remaining connected to the solenoid as standard (so resistance path to ground is unchanged). Electrically speaking apart from the "jumper" connection whilst starting the circuit is therefore the same as the original Peugeot design whereas with the KISS method this is not the case.

    I've attached diagrams of the different relays (diode protected/resistor protected/unprotected) and the KISS circuit connections for reference.
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    With mine I just used a chunky diode from an electrical wholesaler and no relay at all. Works fine.

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    Thanks for the diagrams W505.
    In the interest of KISS!
    Sometimes, fortunately not always, a magnetic current build-up occurs in the operating coil when a relay is turned off and this can cause the main circuit to continue to be active and live [and occasionally to self-destruct]. The answer is to connect a quenching diode, such as a 1N4002, across the coil pos. & neg. wires - with the diode's black band connected to the pos. [live in] wire.
    Doing so is considerably cheaper than fitting internal diode protected DPST or DPDT relays.
    Pavel

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    Quote Originally Posted by wagon505 View Post
    If the KISS mod. works I think it is more by accident rather than good design. The solenoid wire seems to present a path to ground for the fuel injection system after the engine starts. If you replace the starter solenoid coil with a diode or relay coil (as you do with the KISS mod.) you are changing the resistance path to ground and I am not sure whether this affects the fuel injection system. If you start the car and then pull off the solenoid wire and take it for a drive the car doesn't run properly so there's definately something more to it than meets the eye. I also measured 6V at the solenoid feed wire after the engine starts so this why the relay stays energised after the engine starts (unless you use a diode protected relay ??)..
    Perhaps use a Potentiometer to drop the drive voltage enough on the relay so it de-energises properly?
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    We are getting into a bit of a pickle here, aren't we.
    Firstly, terms of reference:
    The SOLENOID is that round thingy on top, and part of, the starter motor.
    The RELAY is a slave switch used to augment the current/voltage supply to the solenoid [in this instance].

    The starter solenoid circuit is from the ignition switch to the solenoid and from the solenoid to the ECU. As you have found, W505, wire 46 has a back EMF of 6 volts. Seeing that, almost without exception, the drop off voltage of a relay is 5 volts or less [the coil releases the contacts] it is no wonder that your starter continued to operate after the ign. key returned to 'run'. Since the relay will still latch at down to about 10 volts, a suitable resister could be inserted into wire 46 near the relay, thus lowering the drop-off voltage to below 5 volts.
    Incidently, the earth return for the injectors is also via the ECU.
    Pavel

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pavel Moore View Post
    We are getting into a bit of a pickle here, aren't we.
    Firstly, terms of reference:
    The SOLENOID is that round thingy on top, and part of, the starter motor.
    The RELAY is a slave switch used to augment the current/voltage supply to the solenoid [in this instance].

    The starter solenoid circuit is from the ignition switch to the solenoid and from the solenoid to the ECU. As you have found, W505, wire 46 has a back EMF of 6 volts. Seeing that, almost without exception, the drop off voltage of a relay is 5 volts or less [the coil releases the contacts] it is no wonder that your starter continued to operate after the ign. key returned to 'run'. Since the relay will still latch at down to about 10 volts, a suitable resister could be inserted into wire 46 near the relay, thus lowering the drop-off voltage to below 5 volts.
    Incidently, the earth return for the injectors is also via the ECU.
    Pavel
    I'm surprised someone hasn't suggested fitting zener diode in series with the coil feed.

    If a 9.1 volt zener was fitted, reverse biased, when the feed voltage exceeds the zener voltage(9.1v)
    it would conduct and thus power the relay coil. At voltages below 9.1v it would not conduct.

    You would need to calculate the zener power rating factoring in relay coil current. That should only be a few watts.

    For the record, wire 46 does not have a back EMF, but rather a back feed voltage. A back EMF (in inductive DC circuits) is an entirely different concept.

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    Hey Rob-That is all getting a little complicated for the average bear.
    What do you reckon if he just kissed it [maybe -if necessary-with a great big sledge hammer] it would at least fix something PERMANENTLY !!!!!!!.

    Pekay.

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    Regarding the suggestions so far which I believe are:

    1. Insert a potentiometer between the relay coil and the feed wire to the coil to reduce the current applied to the coil.
    2. Same as above but use a fixed value resistor instead of a potentiometer
    3. Use a zener diode diode to prevent voltages less than 9V (say) reaching the relay.

    I see the main problems being:

    1. The design operating voltage for the relay is 12V. A lower operating voltage may make operation unreliable.
    2. What happens as the battery ages and also the voltage drop that occurs during engine cranking ? I've read some info that it can be as low as 7.0V under these conditions. With any of these mods. you are compromising the relay's ability to activate under these conditions.

    The "complicated" method avoids all these issues because the "start" signal from the ignition switch is connected to the starter boost relay and nothing else. The original engine start wire from the ignition switch is disconnected completely so there is no longer any connection between the feed to the starter boost relay and to the fuel injection system.

    Sorry to be a smart arse but I enjoy a lively argument (which is why I don't mind French cars !!! ). Thanks for putting up with me guys !

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