XU10J4R - Idling and rough running issues
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  1. #1
    Sans Pond. STALLED's Avatar
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    Default XU10J4R - Idling and rough running issues

    Hey,

    The 406 seeme to be running a bit rough at the moment. The car idles ok, but it will take additional amounts of time in order for the revs to settle at around 800rpm. It will ususall hover around the 1200rpm mark and then eventually settle down.

    The other issue is when I'm driving and back off the throttle, the car seems to "jerk" and "kick" quite considerably. All of the engine mounts are sub 50k old, so it wouldn't be this.

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    Could I be looking at a PCV issue?

    The car has 205,000km on it - with the only recent work conducted prior, was a new muffler installed on the weekend. I'm really at my wits end with this car with the continual amounts of cash I'm shelling out on it...

    Annoyed,

    Joel.
    2005 Renault Clio 182 Cup

    2011 Renault Megane 250 Cup Trophee - Sold

    1997 Peugeot 406 2.0 Manual - On Loan

    2004 Citroen C3 1.4 80th Anniversary (RIP)

  2. #2
    Sans Pond. STALLED's Avatar
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    Anyone?
    2005 Renault Clio 182 Cup

    2011 Renault Megane 250 Cup Trophee - Sold

    1997 Peugeot 406 2.0 Manual - On Loan

    2004 Citroen C3 1.4 80th Anniversary (RIP)

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger!
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    My 306 was doing a similar thing (idle taking longer than usual to settle, & jerk/kick when backing off the throttle.)

    Replacing the throttle position sensor cured it.
    Originally we had replaced the idle air control valve but it made no difference.

    Different engine to yours, but it may give you some ideas.

    Cheers
    spiz

  4. #4
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    thermostat not sticking open is it ??
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  5. #5
    Sans Pond. STALLED's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo View Post
    thermostat not sticking open is it ??
    Nope. Car gets nice and warm!
    2005 Renault Clio 182 Cup

    2011 Renault Megane 250 Cup Trophee - Sold

    1997 Peugeot 406 2.0 Manual - On Loan

    2004 Citroen C3 1.4 80th Anniversary (RIP)

  6. #6
    Sans Pond. STALLED's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiz View Post
    My 306 was doing a similar thing (idle taking longer than usual to settle, & jerk/kick when backing off the throttle.)

    Replacing the throttle position sensor cured it.
    Originally we had replaced the idle air control valve but it made no difference.

    Different engine to yours, but it may give you some ideas.

    Cheers
    Hrrrrrm - Would make sense, given that I cleaned the PCV not that long ago.

    May I ask how much it set you back?
    2005 Renault Clio 182 Cup

    2011 Renault Megane 250 Cup Trophee - Sold

    1997 Peugeot 406 2.0 Manual - On Loan

    2004 Citroen C3 1.4 80th Anniversary (RIP)

  7. #7
    Sans Pond. STALLED's Avatar
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    Besides a dealer (because of the stupid markups) - anyone know where I can get a TPS from?

    I've tried all of the usual suspects - but to no avail.
    2005 Renault Clio 182 Cup

    2011 Renault Megane 250 Cup Trophee - Sold

    1997 Peugeot 406 2.0 Manual - On Loan

    2004 Citroen C3 1.4 80th Anniversary (RIP)

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Dapco?
    Dave at French connection?
    Ebay? Ebay UK?

    Is it the same as J4rs? I might have a spare lying about..

    Cam
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
    91 205 Si
    87 205 GTi Race Car
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/res...-race-car.html

  9. #9
    Sans Pond. STALLED's Avatar
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    Tried all of the locals to no avail...

    Looks like GSF will be the go - 30 quid (not bad...)
    2005 Renault Clio 182 Cup

    2011 Renault Megane 250 Cup Trophee - Sold

    1997 Peugeot 406 2.0 Manual - On Loan

    2004 Citroen C3 1.4 80th Anniversary (RIP)

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Does it run a MAP sensor like the xu10j4 ? If so replace the vacuum hose as leaks in it will cause similar symptoms...

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Oh, and if the tps is like the xu10j4 (S16) one, let me know and I will mail you one, got 2 spares.

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! cme2c's Avatar
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    Stick a scanner on it. My 206 with the 2l version of this engine had similar symptoms (which got worse) cured by a coil pack. It has also had the fuel pump replaced and is now smooth as silk. But don't guess, scan it.
    206 GTi 2003
    VW Golf 118TSI 2009 ( the wife's)
    Bedford CF 1980
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    "Driving a 206GTi makes you feel like you're 18" Jeremy Clarkson

  13. #13
    Tadpole Dan93's Avatar
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    I've been experiencing similar symptoms to Stalled with my 306 XSi, and was initially suspecting that the stepper motor was faulty (currently using a temporary replacement from an older xu10), but after reading this thread, I tried a lap around the block with the TPS disconnected, and the result wasn't much different from when it was connected. The jerkiness of the throttle, along with the lack of response when applying low amounts of throttle was a bit more severe, the only major difference I found was that the engine was easier to stall, and would sometimes stall when coming to a stop.

    Would this indicate a dead TPS? I'm intending on replacing the stepper motor with a new one, considering replacing the TPS also now, but being 19, my bank account probably wouldn't appreciate it
    1999 Peugeot 306 XSi

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Joel,
    When your exhaust guy did the job did he use an electric welder of sorts? If so did he disconnect the battery to prevent 'fritzing' of vital electrics.
    This was advised in the old days, maybe it doesn't apply any more.

  15. #15
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    I think one of the functions of the TPS is to cut off fuel on the overrun, so if it did this erratically (rather than just 'off' it might be off on off on) it might cause the jerking when the throttle is backed off.


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  16. #16
    Tadpole Dan93's Avatar
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    Went for another drive with the TPS connected and pins cleaned, which started off rather uneventfully, but after about 5km of driving, when hitting idle after disengaging the clutch due to slowing down, the rpm would bounce between 800-1000rpm, along with being somewhat hesitant when taking off in 1st gear.

    Also still apparent was the occasional stutter when using light amounts of throttle to maintain speed (e.g. 60km/h in 4th, holding 10% throttle, there would appear to be no/intermittent power, as if someone was flicking a power switch on and off.)

    Finally, while parking in my driveway afterwards, the idle would seem to randomly alternate between cold idle (~1100rpm), normal idle, and a slightly lower, but noticeably rougher idle.
    1999 Peugeot 306 XSi

  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    My car was feeling a little sluggish, so as part of the troubleshooting I pulled off the hose to the map sensor. The car started to run very rough at idle basically doing the reving and spluttering trying to work out the running conditions.

    I put it back on and the car continued to play up in a similar manner even though there was no leak.

    I disconnected the battery for 1/2 hour to reset the ECU and all returned to normal. So the point here is, Have you tried resetting the ECU? (assuming you don't have a vacuum leak).

    Edit: a bottle of injector cleaner and a trip to Newcastle fixed the sluggishness

    Tony.
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

  18. #18
    Tadpole Dan93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wintermute View Post
    I disconnected the battery for 1/2 hour to reset the ECU and all returned to normal. So the point here is, Have you tried resetting the ECU? (assuming you don't have a vacuum leak).

    Edit: a bottle of injector cleaner and a trip to Newcastle fixed the sluggishness

    Tony.
    I'll give this a shot tomorrow morning, thanks for the suggestion!
    1999 Peugeot 306 XSi

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts Ken W's Avatar
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    Hi Joel,

    I am over in the UK at present and just noticed this post on the front page. I have a Xantia wagon that has this engine. The idle used to behave as you detailed. Mine used to slow to 1200 rpm while the car was still moving and then settle to 800 rpm when the car stopped. It doesn't do that anymore though. I had a 6 month battle with the EFI and it finally turned out to be the fuel pressure regulator. I think my replacement is starting to act up again as well now so get a new replacement one not a second hand one.

    Also of note is the idle steeper motor for these has a special profile. If you fit another sort, the idle will be quite unstable.

    Cheers,

    Ken W

  20. #20
    Tadpole Dan93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan93 View Post
    I'll give this a shot tomorrow morning, thanks for the suggestion!
    Went for a 10 minute drive after trying this, the idle seems much stabler, not feeling like the engine is going to die at times, still not perfect, but much better than before.
    The throttle jerkiness seemed to be more occasional, and somewhat harder to notice, it's much easier driving in traffic now
    I'm going to replace the stepper motor with a newie on monday, mostly so I can be a bit more confident in the part's longevity, guessing I will see some kind of improvement also.

    Thanks for helping me out!
    1999 Peugeot 306 XSi

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    No problem. I'm not sure which ECU you have, but I think some of them are not of the continuous learning variety. That is they learn for the first 20 minutes or so and then keep that program. If something changes (sensor deteriating or whatever) then they may not re-learn to cope with the new conditions. Resetting the ECU puts it back into learning mode and it then adjusts to the current conditions.

    Tony.
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

  22. #22
    Tadpole Dan93's Avatar
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    Installed the new stepper motor today, reset the ECU again before going for a test drive, and now the cold idle sits at almost 2000rpm, while the warm idle sits at around 1200rpm, occasionally dropping down to the normal idle of around 850rpm. I'm 100% certain I have the correct stepper motor, and I bought it brand new, so I doubt that the motor is faulty.

    The low throttle judder is still apparent, but I haven't done enough driving yet to confirm whether it is better or worse.
    1999 Peugeot 306 XSi

  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    There is a thread on here somewhere that explains how to "reset" the stepper motor. I've not done it myself, but apparently they need to be reset to form the baseline. Found it --> http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/sho...496#post969496

    Tony.
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

  24. #24
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    There truly is no black art to it.

    The stepper motor changes its steps in response to the Lambada readings as part of its data, or if that fails, in response to tables using air temp, MAP, coolant temperature and TPS ignoring the lambda function.

    Later cars than a 306, do have procedures for reinitialising the auto-adaptives, and the diagnostic software takes you through all the steps from a dead cold start (it's not much, nor difficult). Best performed in winter, when coolant and air is coldest.

  25. #25
    Tadpole Dan93's Avatar
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    Sorry that I'm bumping this thread yet again, but I noticed something that I had overlooked while trying to diagnose my odd power delivery issue, which seems to fit with the intermittent nature of the problem.
    The attached photo is of the no.1 injector's electrical connector, and where the wires meet the connector, the casings and wires themselves look to be in rather bad shape, would this be causing the injector to be cutting out at times? XU10J4R - Idling and rough running issues-3682_4357266444995_848973210_n.jpg
    1999 Peugeot 306 XSi

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