404-504Ti engine
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! wombat200's Avatar
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    Default 404-504Ti engine

    Hi All,

    Contemplating fitting a 504 Ti engine I have into my 1970 404. I do have the other option of building up a carb engine, but the Ti appeals on a number of levels.....

    I know I have to fit a lift pump down near the tank. Question is:

    What sort of flow-rate do I need, and what would I typically use to power it - just a simple ignition feed that runs whenever the ignition is engaged is the obvious solution, but wondering if there are any down sides or tricks - IE if the car sits for a length of time with the ignition on but car not running, will the pump fail trying to force fuel into a non-running mechanical pump, etc.... Obviously the tank will need a return fuel line put in, but that shouldn't be a big deal..... I don't imagine there are too many other traps in this conversion?

    The Ti engine conversion appeals due to good power, reliability of a 'factory' tuned engine & once fitted with electronic ignitin (123 dizzy is my preffered option) a very smooth running engine, by all acounts.....

    Definately I have very little experience with these engines, so all thoughts / ideas / suggestions welcome.

    Rob.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat200 View Post
    Hi All,

    Contemplating fitting a 504 Ti engine I have into my 1970 404. I do have the other option of building up a carb engine, but the Ti appeals on a number of levels.....

    I know I have to fit a lift pump down near the tank. Question is:

    What sort of flow-rate do I need, and what would I typically use to power it - just a simple ignition feed that runs whenever the ignition is engaged is the obvious solution, but wondering if there are any down sides or tricks - IE if the car sits for a length of time with the ignition on but car not running, will the pump fail trying to force fuel into a non-running mechanical pump, etc.... Obviously the tank will need a return fuel line put in, but that shouldn't be a big deal..... I don't imagine there are too many other traps in this conversion?

    The Ti engine conversion appeals due to good power, reliability of a 'factory' tuned engine & once fitted with electronic ignitin (123 dizzy is my preffered option) a very smooth running engine, by all acounts.....

    Definately I have very little experience with these engines, so all thoughts / ideas / suggestions welcome.

    Rob.
    Fit the standard fuel system from a Ti. This consists of a fuel pump down near the tank and return lines from both the fuel pump and also the injection pump at the front.

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    Fellow Frogger! wombat200's Avatar
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    So, the standard rear pump also has a return line off it? That makes sense.... I wonder if these pumps are still available through someone like EAI (thinking out loud). I've got no idea how the 504Ti supplied power to the lift pump, so any suggestions there, Graham? I don't have the 504 here to look at, just the engine.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat200 View Post
    So, the standard rear pump also has a return line off it? That makes sense.... I wonder if these pumps are still available through someone like EAI (thinking out loud). I've got no idea how the 504Ti supplied power to the lift pump, so any suggestions there, Graham? I don't have the 504 here to look at, just the engine.....
    Jst a piece of wire
    No way would the pumps available new, wouldn't you get one with the engine?
    I've done this convesrion a few times and it has never been satisfactory due in part to getting correct fuel pick up in the 404 tank, maybe fit a proper Ti tank in the boot.
    On my last one I fitted a surge tank, the plumbing was horrific!
    Graham.

    Graham

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat200 View Post
    So, the standard rear pump also has a return line off it? That makes sense.... I wonder if these pumps are still available through someone like EAI (thinking out loud). I've got no idea how the 504Ti supplied power to the lift pump, so any suggestions there, Graham? I don't have the 504 here to look at, just the engine.....
    The lift pump is rated at 17psi, 11gallon per hour, 12 Volt 30 watts.

    I would be looking at buying a bosch aftermarket replacement pump with around 1.5 bar rating.

    A suitable pump is Bosch 0580 254 984 (according to them)
    http://www.bosch.com.au/content/lang...l_Pump_WEB.pdf


    I would also fit a LPG cut off relay, ie tachometric relay to kill the pump when the engine stalls. Because the 504 never had one and it increases safety in the event of car accident.

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    Fellow Frogger! wombat200's Avatar
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    Graham, I have the injection pump - I have never had access to the original car for the other componentry, such as lift pump & tank. I have 2 404 tanks, I wouldn't have thought modifying one for a return line (and maybe a surge sump - thanks for the suggestion) would be a big deal? Maybe it is?

    Rob - thanks, a basic aftermarket lift pump what was I had in mind. I like your suggestion of a 'cut-off' relay - what is used to trigger it? Some sort of feed off the distributor? Sorry, but my ignition knowledge is pretty crap....

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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat200 View Post
    Graham, I have the injection pump - I have never had access to the original car for the other componentry, such as lift pump & tank. I have 2 404 tanks, I wouldn't have thought modifying one for a return line (and maybe a surge sump - thanks for the suggestion) would be a big deal? Maybe it is?

    Rob - thanks, a basic aftermarket lift pump what was I had in mind. I like your suggestion of a 'cut-off' relay - what is used to trigger it? Some sort of feed off the distributor? Sorry, but my ignition knowledge is pretty crap....
    Yes, uses dissy pulses.
    I've had a few Tis and was never happy, they always seemed to go hard at first then dissappointment set in!
    I'm much happier with my present 505 GTi engine.
    I will say though that a mate had a Ti powered 404 ute for years and that always went great, maybe becuse he bought a new fuel pump at the outset.
    Do you have the altitude corrector, this needs to be matched to the injection pump.

    Graham

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    1000+ Posts Peter Chisholm's Avatar
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    Don't know if this is significant but the fuel lines on 504 Tis were of a larger diameter, 8mm instead of
    6mm I think.

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    Thanks all, it's all good advice. Yes Graham, I have the altitude corrector - the only thing that was missing from the engine was the air cleaner housing off the end of the manifold, and the dizzy - which was OK, as I wanted to use the 123 unit anyway. I'm planning on modifying my spare fuel tank to take the appropriate fuel lines - Peter, I'll check the fuel line sizes, thanks for the tip.

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat200 View Post
    Thanks all, it's all good advice. Yes Graham, I have the altitude corrector - the only thing that was missing from the engine was the air cleaner housing off the end of the manifold, and the dizzy - which was OK, as I wanted to use the 123 unit anyway. I'm planning on modifying my spare fuel tank to take the appropriate fuel lines - Peter, I'll check the fuel line sizes, thanks for the tip.
    You need a bigger tank. 8 gallons(?) won't go far with a TI engine.

    The line sizes are 8mm, 5/16

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    1000+ Posts bluey504's Avatar
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    Rob I have some Ti parts lurking about if needed. Also a 504 tank, let me confirm in daylight, of the correct type/size of tube. The critical factor(s) are to get the flow volume/pressure right into a mechanical injector pump and then to have enough capacity for the fuel return....and strangely into the correct area. You would be 'surprised' at how many cars suck in 'hot'/returned fuel and then suffer vapour lock!

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    Fellow Frogger! wombat200's Avatar
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    Thanks again, guys - I really appreciate the info. Yes, the 404 tank is quite small, I'd never say no to more capacity.....

    Thanks for the Bosch Catalogue Link, Rob - will price one up, might as well go for a new decent pump of the correct specs...

    Bluey - would take you up on that tank, mate.... I can probably drop by in the next week or so, with the work car..... Might make life a bit easier.... Fitting it into the 404 would probably not be the easy part, though
    Last edited by wombat200; 27th April 2012 at 08:45 PM. Reason: extra info

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    I put a ti engine in 69 404 and it had no problems . Performance was brilliant but it felt a bit low geared compared to a 504 ti

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    1000+ Posts BIGRR's Avatar
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    Default Lots of Pressure

    [QUOTE=robmac;1057062]The lift pump is rated at 17psi, 11gallon per hour, 12 Volt 30 watts.

    I would be looking at buying a bosch aftermarket replacement pump with around 1.5 bar rating.


    I am not sure if it matters, though an acquaintance of mine was a Peugeot factory trained mechanic, from his training notes on the 504Ti that he showed me a few years ago (well really quite a few years ago) the minimum delivery pressure for the electric fuel pump was stated as 24 psi minimum.
    Present fleet:-
    Peugeot 93' 205 Gti 16v
    Peugeot 73' 504 Ti from new
    Peugeot 08' 407 Hdi Coupe from new

    Previous fleet:-
    Peugeot 95' 605 Sv
    Peugeot 92' 205 Gti
    Renault 72' 16TS from new
    Renault 69' 10
    Renault 71' 10s
    Renault 68' 10 from new

    "Be reasonable do it my way!"


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    1000+ Posts Mike Tippett's Avatar
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    When I converted a 404 Carby to KF2 decades ago I just plumbed the return line into the fuel filler neck (rubber bit) with the spigot facing into the tank, that worked for as long as I had the car (4 more years).
    1966 Peugeot 404 Coupé Injection post-restoration reassembly underway!
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    Fellow Frogger! stew's Avatar
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    Default think first!

    A big issue with changing to a Ti is fuel delivery. The fuel tank pick up is a simple pipe into the base of the tank. Remember the pump must be fitted lower than the tank. My suggestion has 3 options. Remove the tank and fit a lift pump with a fuel pot inside it. That gives you the chance to get returned fuel back around the pump to stop surge.
    The second way is what I've done. Fit an external fuel surge tank and a lift pump for it. The return from the engine goes to the surge pot and a return back to the tank as Mike says, into a fitting in the rubber neck.
    The third is to mount a surge tank next to the pump in the area under the back seat in the under side of the floor. Gravity will feed the pot which has a volume of 1 litre and the pump feeds off it the return from the engine feeds back to it and a line on the top of it feeds back to the tank as of Mike's suggestion. I'd fit a primer bulb before all that which helps in first time fill and they have a one way valve which, on a delivery line is a splendid idea.

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    Default Dissy

    The M53 dist curve is the graph you want. Does the 123 do vac. advance? The fuellies loved to get that dead right which was a big reason for high fuel use. Fear not about larger tanks as fuellies are most economical when revving freely. Expect 28 to 33 mpg. if you tune it proper like! I have the data if you like, with some notes for clean running.

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=BIGRR;1057213]
    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    The lift pump is rated at 17psi, 11gallon per hour, 12 Volt 30 watts.

    I would be looking at buying a bosch aftermarket replacement pump with around 1.5 bar rating.


    I am not sure if it matters, though an acquaintance of mine was a Peugeot factory trained mechanic, from his training notes on the 504Ti that he showed me a few years ago (well really quite a few years ago) the minimum delivery pressure for the electric fuel pump was stated as 24 psi minimum.
    I guess the manual could be incorrect.
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Fellow Frogger! wombat200's Avatar
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    Hi All,

    Can't thank youse all enough for all the info, it's really helping me plan things out. The Bosch replacement pump recommended for the 504 is a 5bar / 165lt/hr pump, if my memory from last night is correct....

    Stew - happy to get a copy of whatever tuning info you have.

    Will consider a surge tank - I used to build up diesel fuel systems - including tanks - for boats which always included surge pots / tanks, so familiar with the process.

    The tachometric relays seem to be vehcile-specific - but the LPG ones must be a semi-generic type item, I think? Either way, that seems to be the go....

    Rob
    Last edited by wombat200; 28th April 2012 at 08:20 AM. Reason: correction

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat200 View Post
    Hi All,

    Can't thank youse all enough for all the info, it's really helping me plan things out. The Bosch replacement pump recommended for the 504 is a 5bar / 165lt/min pump.

    Stew - happy to get a copy of whatever tuning info you have.

    Will consider a surge tank - I used to build up diesel fuel systems - including tanks - for boats which always included surge pots / tanks, so familiar with the process.

    The tachometric relays seem to be vehcile-specific - but the LPG ones must be a semi-generic type item, I think? Either way, that seems to be the go....

    Rob
    The Bosch series tachometric relays are designed for high energy ignition systems, ie ignition with an electronic module, contact free points and hi energy coil.

    They may not work 123 ignition systems.

    They won't trigger of normal kettring ignition (points/coil).

    The LPG cut off relays work fine in all conditions. You can add a diode off the starter solenoid feed to extend the ignition power whilst cranking if the "initiate" timer of LPG unit is too short.

    I've fitted a few for aftermarket fuel pumps on 404s and always fit a lpg cut off relay for safety.

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! stew's Avatar
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    Default Just a little shared knowledge

    Pay careful attention to compression and cylinder head thickness. 8.8 was standard fuellie, 10 makes them great. I have head shims if the head is too thin. Cams were different and if you go reground, get 0.265" lift at the lobe. Tighe Cams do a 104T which was beaut. Shim the old valve springs 0.020" too. I'll find my dist. stuff Monday for you. We found Australian cars had a larger tolerence regarding the figures for fuel and ignition. Get the figures as close as possible to perfect and every thing will fall into place, tune wise.
    The Bosch book has been wrong for over 20 years. They have never done the lift pump for the Ti 504. That pump is for 505 douvrin with K and L injection. Lift pump pressure is best at 24 to 28 psi, the 505 pump needs regulating as it will push 75 psi. If one uses the Gti regulator, that gives 45 psi which is high but has worked over the years. Old VW stuff had an adjustable regulator , something like that at 30 psi max would be nice. Many new pumps run in the fuel tank with the regulator in with them. Might be worth thinking about.

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    Fellow Frogger! julian b's Avatar
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    I also ran the return line into the rubber fuel filler neck with no problems .I had to find a different air cleaner as the 504 oil bath wouldnt fit on the 404 .I think i uaed one from a Renauld 17

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts BIGRR's Avatar
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    Default Not Too much pressure

    Robmac,

    thanks, I thought it too rude to enquire where your figures came from, and seeing that there was a 30% difference in pressure did not want someone to purchase a new pump and incorperate another difficulty into tuning his coversion.
    I guess I was given a "bum" steer.
    Though the rest of the info that he gave me on Ti settings was spot on.

    BIGRR
    Present fleet:-
    Peugeot 93' 205 Gti 16v
    Peugeot 73' 504 Ti from new
    Peugeot 08' 407 Hdi Coupe from new

    Previous fleet:-
    Peugeot 95' 605 Sv
    Peugeot 92' 205 Gti
    Renault 72' 16TS from new
    Renault 69' 10
    Renault 71' 10s
    Renault 68' 10 from new

    "Be reasonable do it my way!"


  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! wombat200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stew View Post
    Pay careful attention to compression and cylinder head thickness. 8.8 was standard fuellie, 10 makes them great. I have head shims if the head is too thin. Cams were different and if you go reground, get 0.265" lift at the lobe. Tighe Cams do a 104T which was beaut. Shim the old valve springs 0.020" too. I'll find my dist. stuff Monday for you. We found Australian cars had a larger tolerence regarding the figures for fuel and ignition. Get the figures as close as possible to perfect and every thing will fall into place, tune wise.
    The Bosch book has been wrong for over 20 years. They have never done the lift pump for the Ti 504. That pump is for 505 douvrin with K and L injection. Lift pump pressure is best at 24 to 28 psi, the 505 pump needs regulating as it will push 75 psi. If one uses the Gti regulator, that gives 45 psi which is high but has worked over the years. Old VW stuff had an adjustable regulator , something like that at 30 psi max would be nice. Many new pumps run in the fuel tank with the regulator in with them. Might be worth thinking about.
    Thanks Stew, you've obviously been down this path before. I don't intend to modify the engine - the engine I have is supposed to be a good running relatively low km engine & was got from someone with a good reputation on here. Easy enough to shim the valve springs, though if the engine is standard, probably isn't neccesary? If I was going down the 'freshly rebuilt' engine path, I'd probably build a carb engine, to be honest.....

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    Fellow Frogger! wombat200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stew View Post
    The M53 dist curve is the graph you want. Does the 123 do vac. advance? The fuellies loved to get that dead right which was a big reason for high fuel use. Fear not about larger tanks as fuellies are most economical when revving freely. Expect 28 to 33 mpg. if you tune it proper like! I have the data if you like, with some notes for clean running.
    Justbeen re-reading all this stuff, will copy & paste it into word & keep it....

    The 123 dizzy has a M53 curve available on it & accepts the vacuum advance tube directly into the unit.

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