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Thread: 504 fan

  1. #1
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    Default 504 fan

    I know this topic has been beaten to death but I have some concerns about the electromagnetic fan in my '74 504 GL. The car runs cool at highway speed but sitting in traffic the temp will go up almost to the red, then drop once I start moving again. i suspect the fan is not kicking because even when the car is hot at idle, the fan does not seem to be spinning very rapidly. Also can leave the car run for 30 minutes and never hear a clunk or see the fan speed increase. I did short the wires to the switch in the radiator (ignition on, car not running) and i did hear a clunk at the water pump but the fan did not start spinning. The carbon brushes at idle seem to be in close contact/touching the brass ring on the water pump. Do i have a faulty radiator switch or am i missing something else? thanks

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    The sender unit on the radiator doesn't last forever and possbly needs replacement. Short the terminals from this switch and the fan should lock in. There are little adjustment bolts on the fan - I forget their clearance. If the thing clunks it sounds as if the electromagnet is working.This doesn't make the fan spin, only to lock solidly. So with the wires shorted it shouldn't turn freely.

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    Hmm, i think I'm still unclear on the "locked in " concept. So with the ignition on and the car not running, shorting the wires to the switch in the radiator shouldnt start the fan spinning but should in essence engage the clutch and lock the fan in place, or if the car were running, drive the fan electrically rather than by the belt - is that more or less it? Do the adjustment bolts on the fan relate to the clutch?

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    Not quite. The fan is only ever driven by the belt - the only electric part of the system is the clutch.

    With the engine running, and the electromagnetic clutch locked, the fan will spin because the fan mounting boss is locked to the water pump pulley.

    So if you short the wires to the radiator switch and start the car, the fan should spin fast (much faster than it does with clutch unlocked, which is just the clutch dragging a little). If it does, then your problem is the switch in the radiator - a cheap part and easy to replace.

    Yes, the little adjustment bolts are to set the clutch clearance. If there is too large a gap the electromagnet won't be able to lock the clutch. If the gap is too small, the clutch won't release and the fan will always be on.

    Make sense?
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    temp gauge going up almost to the red is still within normal operating temp.....mine does exactly what yours does (goes all the way up and then drops when moving again)and thats even though my fan works! i check it all the time, it should come in with the temp gauge nearly all the way to the red....you only need to worry if the needle actually continues into the red, then youve got problems.

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    You've got SOME sort of problem, Mud ! Perhaps a partially clogged radiator, or the welsh plug behind the water pump has come out, or is missing completely. The gauge shouldn't go up like that whilst idling.........perhaps just a tad.

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    theres no problem there at all beano, the gauge stays within the black, which is all normal operating temp, i drive this car every single day in mixed traffic and it has never ever ever ever not even once gone into the red, and the fan works perfectly fine to keep it from going into the red.......as long as the gauge stays in the black theres nothing to worry about.

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    As above tests and if the fan does come on,you can always wire up an over ride switch so you can turn the fan on any time you like. From a very distant memory I think I put 'double adaptors" on each terminal on the radiator switch and ran the wire to an in-car switch so you can turn the fan on in traffic before the car gets hot.OR just reduce the 10mm fan gap to zero and the fan will be on all of the time. OR as said above the radiator needs a good rake through- 504s only ever run cool enough when the radiator is perfect. You used to be able to get thermostats that opened earlier as well. Neil

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    Not a great thing to admit to but when any 504 of mine has had problems with the fan clutch not locking in I've just adjusted the gap to zero. Takes 5 mins and problem solved. I've also seen other 504s with a big hose clamp running right around the two halves of the clutch which also locks the clutch.

    If the temp gauge needle is out of the red all is well. If in the red, and you are not losing lots of water, then you probably have either a blocked radiator or rusted out welsh plug behind the water pump.

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    Thanks everyone, I think I get it now. Sounds like i have a radiator switch problem, I hope so - I'll short out the switch tonight with the car running to see what happens. Hopefully a new switch will help me run a bit cooler although based on Mud's comments maybe not. Mostly concerned because of all the comments I've seen about the 504 being prone to blowing head gaskets upon overheating, esp as we're heading toward summer here in california

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    Not so much... Shadowpucci had a failure on it a few times... and is not soooo prone to blown head gasket.

    Shadowpucci, ANSWER!!


    Quote Originally Posted by luthier View Post
    It is simply impractical to expect a petrol motor to get through too much water. That's why God invented diesels.

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    My fan was having a problem with the gap regulators, and the temperature goes to red maybe 5 or 6 times in traffic the last year. When that happens, i solve it (regulating the gap again) but it reached the red line some times, without any gasket blow. As molerpa says, this engine is not so prone to blow it.

    Now, i remove the cylinder head (because another failure, not a head gasket blow) and the gasket is perfect, also the cylinder head, no deformations or blows...

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    yeah... that precious ignition module


    Quote Originally Posted by luthier View Post
    It is simply impractical to expect a petrol motor to get through too much water. That's why God invented diesels.

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    Don't forget that the temperature gauge system is getting old and if there is any current leakage in the system it will over-read. But yes, overheat a 504 and it nearly always blows a head gasket.
    If you haven't had the car over summer before, I strongly recomend having the radiator properly cleaned and putting a new thermo switch and thermostat in.
    Last edited by Russell Hall; 21st April 2012 at 08:34 AM.

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    1000+ Posts Peter Chisholm's Avatar
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    I've not heard of 504s having a reputation for blowing head gaskets, liner seals maybe, but not head gaskets. I'd venture to suggest that they are nowhere as bad as, say, a Mitsubishi Magna. My ex-wife had a hose split while motoring along and by the time she had pulled over the head gasket had blown and the head warped. Its worth noting that she is quite mechanically aware and didn't waste time.

    On the other hand, it's front wheel drive and the engine is lightly built and the 2.6 litre head weighs about half the weight of a 2 litre 504 head.

    There are good lessons for all of us in threads like this. Our 504s (or 404s or whatever) are getting old, but do we service them accordingly? Do we make sure that the welsh plugs at the back of the head and behind the water pump have been renewed within, say, the last ten or fifteen years? How old is the thermostat? Have we ever checked the fan clutch gap? When was the last time the radiator was raked through? Are we sure the water pump hasn't developed the odd drip?

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    so long as the hub is working and the gap is right and the temp sender is operational i'd leave it alone

    give the radiator a clean out

    make sure you have a fan shroud otherwise it will get hot

    don't lock the fan up unless you want to use more fuel and decrease engine power

    a locked fan sucks the life out of the engine and when driving in traffic you can always feel that the fan is engaged or not, it's like turning aircon on
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    mud
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo View Post
    so long as the hub is working and the gap is right and the temp sender is operational i'd leave it alone

    give the radiator a clean out

    make sure you have a fan shroud otherwise it will get hot

    don't lock the fan up unless you want to use more fuel and decrease engine power

    a locked fan sucks the life out of the engine and when driving in traffic you can always feel that the fan is engaged or not, it's like turning aircon on

    i agree with pugrambo, locked fans are crap, they chew fuel and sound horrible like a truck, better to fix the fan clutch so it works, all parts are readily available and cheap, so why not.....

    as for blowing head gaskets ive never heard of overheating causeing head gasket to blow on a 504, other cars yes. ive only ever blown one head gasket on another 504 i had, and funnily enough it wasnt even over heating, i looked at the temp gauge straight away when it happened and it was at half way. so i guess a head gasket can go at any time theres no way of telling when.

    to put everyones mind at ease about normal operating temp, ive scanned this page out of one of the 504 owners manual i have, read it for yourselves and make your own conclusions

    thanks
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 504 fan-peugeot-temp-gauge.jpg  

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    I'm proably biased because I always seemed to have friends wanting head gaskets replaced because the price was right (a bottle of wine or so on). Four hours in the service schedule to do a 504 gasket. But my 504 over 25 years had several head gaskets and never let me off after it overheated. Not blown as such but the tell-tale white gunk in the oil filler strainer. Must have been the mechanic. A certain Peugeot mechanic who ran an agency workshp (and always put the gaskets on upside down) while demonstrating a fancy tool he'd got off Renault to tighten two head bolts at once told me I wouldn't be able to do a 504 head. Perhaps he was right. But I don't think I've ever seen a Peugeot immobilized with a head gasket.

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    Having blown head gaskets in Nissan 240K, a Peugeot 505 and a Toyota Camry, I am a bit paranoid about my 504. Was also a bit worried when the heat went up waiting for 'A' holes to pick the closest parking spot to the door in a multi level car park, temperature went up, even on the car. Always cool on the highway, except for a trip I did recently through the highlands of Tasmnia. Cold as a witches, but temperature went up - good gauge for how steep the mountains really were. Cooled down straight away on the downhill slope. Never gone into the red, but have made sure I have replaced all hoses, thermostat, clips, and flushed radiator when I bought it. All been ok if you service regularly.

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    Quick update, did replace the radiator switch with a spare I had and also flushed the radiator while I was at it. Good thing too since I had forgotten that my radiator is a bit rusty, not severe but the antifreeze after two years of service had a slight brownish tint with a fine sediment apparent upon sitting. Anyway, the temp still does go up in traffic but the fan kicks in and the temp gauge stabilizes a good 1-2 widths of the needle cooler than before which is enough to put my mind at ease. thanks again for all the advice and the reminder to keep your cooling system in top shape!

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    Might be worth taking the rad out & dropping it into a radiator place to have the tanks taken off & properly cleaned..... Probably find the core is at least partly blocked....

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    I'd also look at replacing the thermostat. I've replaced three or four in my S16. I know it is a completely different animal, but the symptoms were almost exactly the same as yours when idling (nomal temp for mine is 90deg when the thermostat is dodgy idle will hit 105deg). The main difference was that on really hot days it would run 10 - 15deg hotter than it should even on the highway.

    I'm not sure what the reason is (half opening or opening late??) but every time I've replaced one the car goes back to sitting on 90 deg varying by at most 2 or 3 deg.

    Tony.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat200 View Post
    Might be worth taking the rad out & dropping it into a radiator place to have the tanks taken off & properly cleaned..... Probably find the core is at least partly blocked....
    I agree... Besides that, cann also be the blind plug behind the turbine of the water pump. Sometimes it is lose, enough to pollute cold water with hot water, bypassing the radiator internally, and also damaging (worn) the pump turbine.

    explained that, is PERFECTLY NORMAL that on city driving is up to 8-15 degrees more than open road. Original thermostat is (depending model) 76-80-82 and some 83. This on open road gives 80-82 degrees, and on city can reach up to 90-95. Normal. Not a problem. This is why the radiator cap is presurized... to avoid boiling watter at normal operating temps. On 107-110 will start releasing pressure, not before. Keeping it presurized, is the way to avoid overheatings that damage the engine.


    When the water starts boiling, steam/vapour blocks appear next to the hot spots of the cylinder head and/or cylinder block and liners. (I don't know if "vapor/steam block" is correct... Please, if you can clarify this to me, would be great to have better vocabulary, which is, as you can see, quite small).

    This is why:
    1- use coolant, not just water
    2- keep the system presurized.

    The reason of why I never blew a gasket in 210.000 Km on my 504 (turbocharged, XN1, 210.000Km in 3 years, running on CNG) is that I always payed special attention to this (replaced original expansion recipient for the 505 type, changed the radiator cap to work with it, changed thermoswitch to 92-88, to make it work quite hotter, and also thermostat from original 83 to one I found, 89).
    After 210k Km, pump failed, and blew it because went too high, losing pressure through the expansion recipient.
    Last edited by Molerpa; 25th April 2012 at 10:49 AM.


    Quote Originally Posted by luthier View Post
    It is simply impractical to expect a petrol motor to get through too much water. That's why God invented diesels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Molerpa View Post
    After 210k Km, pump failed, and blew it because went too high, losing pressure through the expansion recipient.
    That's why my 505's cooling system is depressurized. And it doesn't NEED to be. My air conditioning is never on and there is no other reason for the engine to get hot. Temperature gauge usually stays on 1/2 unless it's a very hot day.

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    I don't understand. The pump had 12 years at that time... the engine had receive one overhaul and changed the pump in 1987, and then the blind plug that is behind the pump got lose. Enought to unlock the turbine from the shaft. I cannot understand what would change having the circuit presurized, not-presurized, or with mozzarella cheese on it, to this.

    Now, thinking deeply... yes, can modify something...Water would have gone earlier.

    Anyway. Not having the circuit presurized, get's you out of the chance of avoiding boiling. Is not new for you that some parts on the engine are hotter than 80-90 degrees... The only way to ensure contact with coolant, is presurization.

    If it does not need to be, why is it that the "warning light" of temp is at 107-110 degrees (depending on model) because, as far as I know, water boils up, QUITE BEFORE than 100 degrees, and why is it that the temp gauge is going to "danger zone" when it is over 103?

    This, on 504. On 505, The "red" is around 110. And the "stop" turns on when 115 degrees are achieved.


    Just in case, aren't you confusing "presurized circuit" to "sealed system"? ... you're not running without any radiator cap, do you?

    Regards,


    Quote Originally Posted by luthier View Post
    It is simply impractical to expect a petrol motor to get through too much water. That's why God invented diesels.

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