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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default 306 s16 HELP!

    Hello everyone! First post and I need some advice from some experienced pug owners, in particular 306 s16 owners...

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    My '95 s16 (XU10J4) has recently developed some fairly decent leaks from the gearbox, selector shaft seals, drive shaft seals, power steering rack, timing seals, rocker cover, oil pressure switch and sump gasket... My current mechanic has suggested an entire re-gasket/seal to patch it all in one hit. I know this will be pricey, he gave me a rough quote of 4 grand.

    So I would like to know, 1) Is this worth patching up or would it be better to look for a new engine?

    2) If I bite the bullet and get them to yank the engine out, I was considering a port/polish seeing as though it's got to come apart anyway. Is this worth doing on these engines and what would the resulting change in performance be?

    This car is my "daily" drive. I have spent money on getting it driving nicely and am interested in now upgrading the performance, slowly...

    I love it even though it continues to swallow my money like a 15yr old with a bag of goon...


    I would truly appreciate your advice, as nobody seems to understand these cars except for those who drive them!

    Thankyou!

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    What is "fairly decent"?

    None of what you listed is terminal. Depending on how much of the fluids is lost they can be anywhere from "don't worry about it" to "live with it" and keep the money. They can be terminal of course, but then you'll bleed some money anyway.

    A fair few of those problems can be cured with the engine in place and are well within the realm of DIY. which can save a lot of dosh.

    The head/engine does not need to come off for any of the problems you mention.

    The oil switch probably has a .20$ crush washer you can replace even if you've never seen a spanner before.

    My suggestion is to get the engine/g'box squeaky clean, top up all fluids then drive around for about 1-2 hours and then get the car on some ramps and have a look around.

    Assess what is serious and if you're really concerned attend one thing at a time. Replacing for instance driveshaft seals is easy, can be done with the transmission in place and potentially stops 90% of the g'box leaks (by volume). Not that you couldn't just forget about it and just top up the g'box.

    The problem is to do these things judiciously and properly. Driving a seal home might seem easy, but Renault/Peugeot use special tools for a reason. Otherwise you'll be replacing seals at no end. Also, make sure there isn't some other reason the seals get destroyed (out of round shafts/worn bearings etc.).

    Spend money wisely.

    Or just drive this engine /g'box into the ground whilst doing a spare up properly. I am sure you'll have offers right here before long.

    Good luck.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 12th April 2012 at 10:09 AM.
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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    $4K is a lot of money to just fix oil leaks! For not much more you could have the engine/box out, fully reconditioned and attend to the PAS rack at the same time. Degrease it as per advice above first.

    Are you anywhere near Charles St Auto? A second opinion would be worthwhile.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    I posted similar but lost it with the wireless dropping out on the bus. Will post a more complete post tonight.

    Tony.
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

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    Thanks for your speedy feedback!

    "Fairly decent" refers more to the speed that they showed up, the intensity is still to be determined. The leaks all appear to have showed up in the two months between visits to the shop. Last time it was in, for an A/C regas, they degreased the entire engine bay and beneath to see what/how much reappeared by the next service. It's in for a service next tuesday so we'll assess it then.

    Some symptoms while driving, possibly related? Occasional "marble in a coke can" rattle when approaching 3000 rpm, not under considerable load.
    Increasingly frequent pops/cracks which sound like they're coming from directly beneath me or possibly under my feet. These occur while accelerating, cruising and decelerating...

    Peter, thanks for the recommendation! I will take it to them after this routine service and see what they have to say. I was going to post another thread asking where people go for pug work in adelaide... I've had a fair few mechanics shaking their head and looking nervous when they've peeked under the bonnet!

    Thanks

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    I originally posted this morning that I thought maybe that your mechanic quoted you a figure of 4K in the hope you would turn it down as he may not want to do the job.

    How well do you know this mechanic and do you trust him entirely? My suspicious side makes me wonder if some bolts were loosened the last time it went in for service, apologies if I'm off the mark here, but I have had my unfair share of experience with unscrupulous mechanics in the past.

    The rattle at 3K is commonly the heat shield over the exhaust manifold, if your lucky it's just some loose bolts, though sometimes they crack.

    Driveshaft oil seals should be able to be done without forking out too much cash.

    I'd be surprised if there is much oil leaking from the gear linkages, but I guess it is possible.

    I'd check the hose that goes from the rocker cover to the block, that has been the biggest leak in my car for a while (but note you can't buy the oem hose any more, If it is leaking oil goes everywhere, which may make it look like it is leaking from other places as well. I bought some after market "performance" hose to do mine but won't find out for a few weeks if it has worked or not, as I won't be getting my gearbox back for a while, as Adrian is unable to work on it for a while.

    The sump MAY just need some bolts tightened (mine I found on the weekend had two that were only finger tight, however I am going to drop mine. They are a 6mm allen key and should only be tightened up to 7 ft/lbs (not very tight) probably worth checking and tightening if loose then degrease observe.

    Power steering ram went on mine about 8 years ago, shortly after the mechanic at the time put "conditioner" in the reservoir. I can probably dig up the receipt for the work. It was spraying fluid onto the exhaust when on full lock.

    Pops/cracks from underneath doesn't sound good. Have not experienced that except when a wire came off killing the ignition, but the injectors kept firing, the pops/cracks were the CAT exploding when the unburnt fuel went into it, though I don't think this is what you are experiencing....

    How many KM has the car done, and has the clutch been replaced? Mine was completely stuffed at 235,000KM. If you need to do the clutch, get the diff done as well while the box is out. See my gearbox thread for the reason why

    The oil pressure switch should be an easy fix, but for it to suddenly start leaking (at the same time everything else apparently did) makes me very suspicious of foul play.

    to be getting up to the 4K mark there would have to be quite a few days of labour involved if I was contemplating spending that much I'd be expecting a lot more than just getting the seals replaced. Certainly before doing all of the seals at a minimum a compression test would be in order. There would be no point spending a small fortune doing seals that would need to be done again if you pulled the engine down for a reco. Even if you put in $1000 for parts (which I think would be excessive) you would be looking at nearly 5 full days of labour!!

    Tony.
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wintermute View Post

    Driveshaft oil seals should be able to be done without forking out too much cash.
    You say that, but how long did it take you to get the drive shafts out? Think about it. Jack up the car, wheels off, hub nuts, break the joints etc. Once you've got the shafts out, you may as well undo the exhaust flange and gearbox linkages, then drop the engine/box out the bottom.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    hehe I meant if being done by an experienced mechanic who has the right tools! not DIYING!!! edit: it took me two weekends to get there remember

    Tony.
    Last edited by Wintermute; 12th April 2012 at 09:50 PM. Reason: add two weekends comment.
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    The first time I had to pull the driveshafts out on my 205GTI I was working blindly (no manual/info) and it took me less than two hours to pull both out and replace the seals. I didn't find it a really challenging exercise, as it would for instance doing the same job on a R12 (my other car).

    And, Peter when I dropped the engine (exactly as you say) I wasted more time undoing all the A/C and other hosiery crap because of the limited access at the fixings.

    As for OP, I think the mechanic gave him a "go away" quote. If he bites, the job is actually easier for the mechanic. I would have asked, okay, what's the price to change just this seal/gasket and picked one that didn't need the engine out (say the sump). The answer to that would give away the mechanic's spiel.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wintermute View Post
    How many KM has the car done, and has the clutch been replaced? Mine was completely stuffed at 235,000KM. If you need to do the clutch, get the diff done as well while the box is out. See my gearbox thread for the reason why
    The car has only clocked 188k and has the original clutch, which I haven't had any trouble with at all. I did check out that thread last week, it made me nervous about what we may find once we start poking around my engine bay...

    Thanks for your help. I'm going to have a second pair of eyes take a look at it and suss it out asap.


    Now I know this is somewhat taboo or awkward, but I want to talk performance... What are the do's and don'ts of tuning s16's? Do I need to take this to another thread?

    Sorry, new guy...

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bman View Post

    [...]

    Now I know this is somewhat taboo or awkward, but I want to talk performance... What are the do's and don'ts of tuning s16's? Do I need to take this to another thread?

    Sorry, new guy...
    The most important don't is don't tune it. You have 100Kw. That's enough. Leave it alone. Especially if you have to rely on mechanics changing your oil seals.

    Not to put you down.

    You have a brilliant car, keep it that way. By now there are so few left untouched yours will stand out exactly because of that. Even if you look around here, you will see there's very few left as such whereas most attempts at tuning end up in all sorts of disasters or pass the buck stories (if the car is not ruined beyond hope). I turned back from the brink one such car (a 205GTI, not a 306, but just as much a preferred victim of tuning attempts of the uninitiated) and it's still not looking very flash after a great many very long hours and some dosh thrown at it.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Haha, fair enough! I'm certainly not a confident DIYer, maybe if it wasn't my only car...

    I do love the car and it is so much fun to drive, especially through the hills. But I can't help but think, what if it could go faster...
    I had it dyno'd a while back and it has 80.4kw at the wheels. Surely that could be tweaked without having to do anything too drastic?

    I appreciate your honesty!

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bman View Post
    Haha, fair enough! I'm certainly not a confident DIYer, maybe if it wasn't my only car...

    I do love the car and it is so much fun to drive, especially through the hills. But I can't help but think, what if it could go faster...
    I had it dyno'd a while back and it has 80.4kw at the wheels. Surely that could be tweaked without having to do anything too drastic?

    I appreciate your honesty!
    If it went faster you'd lose your licence sooner.

    On windy roads power is not the key, but putting it on the ground. A lot of people spend endless money on engine upgrades and usually run out before they get to more important stuff like tires. My approach is the other way around. Get the best tires you can and see if you can get the most out of your engine/suspension that way. When you feel you are better than your car start thinking about the next step. Don't end up like 90% of the hobby tuners on ego boosting trips with a car that is way better than you or even worse, up a tree. Remember the Top Gear episode where they mention the inimaginable amount of money spent yearly in the UK on car upgrades that don't upgrade anything as they prove in the end.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Yeah I've heard that this can be the best approach. I guess because this is the first really great car I've had to play around with I didn't really know where to start!

    I'm looking at some nice 16" spoked alloys and fitting some decent tyres then having the suspension looked at. I had the brakes serviced and pads replaced mid last year so I won't be upgrading them until these ones wear down a bit.

    What are some good spring/shock combinations for these cars? I'd probably have it lowered a little while replacing these. It doesn't take much to make these cars look really serious! Such a classic design.

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Again, the more experienced people on the forum here seem to agree that stock is best (at least for 205s).

    These cars (the 205, 405, 306 and 206) are probably the best cars in regard to their handling and driver satisfaction. Peugeot has really put in the effort here and that's why they're such a brilliant package in stock form.

    But if you think you can really improve on their hours and millions spent, go right ahead.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Tadpole
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    I should have titled this thread, "Tadpole goes to school"


    Thanks

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    The XU10J4 is a good engine, but you can make it great, without effecting the value of the car. It's something you can only do with a full rebuild however, thus you have to be dedicated to keeping the car etc. The engine is very "doughy" and lacks response. This is because the pistons are a whopping 1mm down the bore at TDC. The fix is easy once the engine is apart. Skim 1mm off the block. Also add a mild inlet cam and injectors from a 1.9L GTi 205 and you'll love it.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Doughy describes it pretty well. It will pick up speed but won't exactly punch you into the back of your seat.

    Peter, you mentioned Charles st Autos earlier, would they do that kind of work if I sourced the parts?

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Yes, fairly sure they do. Here's some info you may find useful.

    http://www.taylor-eng.com/

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    haha I've nevery thought of it as being doughy, but then I drive a morris 1100 for 13 years before I got the S16 so that may affect the perception somewhat

    Tony.
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wintermute View Post
    haha I've nevery thought of it as being doughy,
    Very, compared to a 1.9L Mi16, or a 205.

    And stop mentioning the Morris. You need to let it go. Move on.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    ok message received

    Tony.
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    The XU10J4 is a good engine, but you can make it great, without effecting the value of the car. It's something you can only do with a full rebuild however, thus you have to be dedicated to keeping the car etc. The engine is very "doughy" and lacks response. This is because the pistons are a whopping 1mm down the bore at TDC. The fix is easy once the engine is apart. Skim 1mm off the block. Also add a mild inlet cam and injectors from a 1.9L GTi 205 and you'll love it.
    Peter, you mentioned this before, and I have read your webpage linked above, but I don't see the difference in squish if you just skim the head. Why does it matter whether you take a skim off the head or off the block/liners when the end result is the same, i.e. the combustion chamber is reduced? Isn't the squish the same in the end?

    This is the more confusing since the 205GTI (DFZ engine) has a lot of distance in the head (about 4-5mm, maybe more) compared to a DKZ head. This would make you believe the squish is even worse on this engine, yet it pulls like a train.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    As far as I am aware you cannot skim an S16 head at all!! At least that's what I was told when I warped mine 20 thou. It was sent away to be straightened instead which was done successfully.

    Tony.
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Squish is the distance from the piston crown to the flat part of the cylinder head, not the chamber. So if you skim the head, you haven't changed the squish distance. All you've done is reduce the chamber volume, increasing CR.

    So it's possible to have a small squish distance and low CR, like a 75kW 205 GTi, or a large squish distance and high CR like a 2L Mi16/S16.

    You can skim an XU10J4 head. The limit is when the milling cutter teeth hit the inlet valve seats. Remember these are at an angle of approx. 25 deg. to the face. The practical limit is only approx. 0.5mm. Because it's a pentroof type chamber, you're doing very little to increase CR.

    JeffR's head:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 306 s16 HELP!-mi16-s16-chamber.jpg  

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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