when you don't want to own a 205 *sigh*
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    Default when you don't want to own a 205 *sigh*

    Hi all

    First post for ages, been working 60-70 hrs / week on a late project, have another stacked so it has to continue and today went to come home from work and the starter went rr-stop.

    no big deal, battery is on the way out, it did this exactly yesterday in the rain. The funny thing yesterday was that when i went to push start it locked the front up in second as if something solid were contacting... but i wasn't sure if it wasn't just slipping so i rolled it backwards in 4th and it turned over nicely, stopped it at near tdc and hit the starter, vroom up she fires, its running a bit funny but thats nothing new.

    what was something new was it blew the breather plug out and sprayed oil under the bonnet and had a slow water leak on the way home...

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    quickly cleaned the bay this morning and topped water with a worried thought in my mind, but it started fine and apart from running rough on and off drove to work.

    after work i look again and the engine bay is sprayed with oil, breather in place, i top up the water, go to start rrrr-stop. I had someone with me this time and not in the rain so the solid DONK as solid things contacted while trying to push start is very obvious !

    put it in 5th and roll it forward and it goes click, click, click DONK-stop.

    i am somewhat confused by how what appears serious engine damage can come and go? surely if the cam belt had slipped yesterday then boom it should have been all over. I have heard of seizing intermittently but that would lock solid wouldn't it, not turn over in 5th with that sound.

    currently it is parked at work, i don't have the cash for a pro 16v install and i don't have time to do a cheapie myself as i said, one of those times it sucks to have an old car.
    1990 205gti 8v, sv1000, zx6, sv650, zxr750, rgv250, austin 1800, fiat 124ac, fiat x1/9, 76 rd350, 124bc, lancia beta, yz125G, yz80h, yz50g, gtmx80c

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    the obvious answer is to fix it myself. i am just trying to work out if rewiring a 205 and replacing its engine is a welcome break from 2 computer programming jobs or it will make my head explode.

    btw - no option really here for quick replace of same engine, i hate SOHC engines and the wiring is stuffed anyway.
    1990 205gti 8v, sv1000, zx6, sv650, zxr750, rgv250, austin 1800, fiat 124ac, fiat x1/9, 76 rd350, 124bc, lancia beta, yz125G, yz80h, yz50g, gtmx80c

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    Bummer know the feeling! Currently (slowly) removing the gearbox from my S16 (two weekends so far). It's certainly different to sitting behind the computer all day

    Is it possible you have broken the crank? Just speculating... XU104J conversions seem to be the go, but anything you get is probably going to need a reco anyway if you want reliability. It's in the back of my mind that after I've done the box how long is the engine going to last.

    I've been told they are good for 300 - 400,000 KM, but seeing the number of people saying they have rebuilt an S16 engine I'm wondering how likely that really is. Mine did still have factory hone marks in the bores at 127,000KM with no wear evident at all, but how good an indicator that is I don't really know, and that is just the bores. big ends and mains might be a different story.

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  4. #4
    1000+ Posts djvu205's Avatar
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    thats shitty luck. i would be just going for a quick fix until your ready to do the 16v properly. if you rush the conversion you will only make things harder than nesscessary.

  5. #5
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Cylinder head / gasket issue? Water getting into the combustion chamber causing it to hydraulic lock? Wouldn't hurt to check the spark plugs and see if one or two are particularly clean or rusty compared to the others...
    Scotty

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  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    Cylinder head / gasket issue? Water getting into the combustion chamber causing it to hydraulic lock? Wouldn't hurt to check the spark plugs and see if one or two are particularly clean or rusty compared to the others...
    thx thats a good idea.

    and cheers, as they say, when it rains...
    1990 205gti 8v, sv1000, zx6, sv650, zxr750, rgv250, austin 1800, fiat 124ac, fiat x1/9, 76 rd350, 124bc, lancia beta, yz125G, yz80h, yz50g, gtmx80c

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Yes, I too would suggest inspect cylinders by removing plugs. Perhaps wouldn't hurt looking down the holes and trying to see if there's any valves fallen in or chunks of debris. To make sure, perhaps you could take off the rocker cover.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts Isis's Avatar
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    bad luck mate. take some deep breaths. just remember that heaps of newish cars do this too and cost a mint to fix - ($15K for an M3 SMG gearbox anyone?)
    S3 205 GTI x 4 and getting lower
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  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    oh, it just occurred to me, perhaps its as simple as a driveshaft ! its something that can fix itself in the sense that if (for instance) the inner bearing on the long shaft is stuffed the driveshaft might contact while trying to push start but not do anything untoward while driving.

    the fact the battery chose yesterday to die only shows that without that dying i wouln't have push started and ?maybe discovered the drive shaft bearing is stuffed.

    i couldnt get the time to try and work it out better yesterday but today i can after work. oh, i'm feeling a bit excited, it didnt make sense that it was valve or engine related but kind of intermittent.
    1990 205gti 8v, sv1000, zx6, sv650, zxr750, rgv250, austin 1800, fiat 124ac, fiat x1/9, 76 rd350, 124bc, lancia beta, yz125G, yz80h, yz50g, gtmx80c

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    fingers crossed!!!
    306 S16 1995 black
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  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    ha ha ha - mods feel free to either delete this thread or mark me / my post etc with a dunce cap, lol.

    can't guarantee it is the driveshaft yet but i got a couple of people to help and rolled it backwards for >4 compression cycles without DONK / stop so there aint nothin wrong with the engine.

    i couldn't visibly see anything moving / wrong / loose with the driveshaft but my car has ~100mm of ground clearance so not the easiest thing to look under. i can't imagine diff or gbox making those noises so yay, it looks like i am:
    1 in the clear
    2 an idiot

    1990 205gti 8v, sv1000, zx6, sv650, zxr750, rgv250, austin 1800, fiat 124ac, fiat x1/9, 76 rd350, 124bc, lancia beta, yz125G, yz80h, yz50g, gtmx80c

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spar View Post
    oh, it just occurred to me, perhaps its as simple as a driveshaft ! its something that can fix itself in the sense that if (for instance) the inner bearing on the long shaft is stuffed the driveshaft might contact while trying to push start but not do anything untoward while driving.

    the fact the battery chose yesterday to die only shows that without that dying i wouln't have push started and ?maybe discovered the drive shaft bearing is stuffed.

    i couldnt get the time to try and work it out better yesterday but today i can after work. oh, i'm feeling a bit excited, it didnt make sense that it was valve or engine related but kind of intermittent.
    The driveshaft support bearing being stuffed would just result in a deep constant rumble, but that could not impede you pushing the car.

    Also it doesn't explain the oil cap being blown off and coolant loss.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    as to the excessive blow past, it was running like a dog that day so i suspect the advance might have been playing up to cause it?

    as to the water leak, no idea, just replaced the heater hose so i guess another hose on the way out

    its fun guessing problems with systems with multiple problems nice of them all to contribute to my confusion on the same day
    1990 205gti 8v, sv1000, zx6, sv650, zxr750, rgv250, austin 1800, fiat 124ac, fiat x1/9, 76 rd350, 124bc, lancia beta, yz125G, yz80h, yz50g, gtmx80c

  14. #14
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    Cylinder head / gasket issue? Water getting into the combustion chamber causing it to hydraulic lock? Wouldn't hurt to check the spark plugs and see if one or two are particularly clean or rusty compared to the others...
    That would be my first thought too. And if the right sort of leak has developed it is only "sort of" hydraulically locked.
    JohnW

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  15. #15
    1000+ Posts Capago's Avatar
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    I know the feeling. except my car sits in the garage with rego on it for a month because i cant be bothered, more than anything else. i have to deal with peugeots during the week, why would i want to deal with them on the weekend?
    The wrong oil is better than no oil at all.

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    And if the right sort of leak has developed it is only "sort of" hydraulically locked.
    we have a winner

    cracked head or gasket i suppose but i put a new battery in it and after a couple of tries it ran rough, exiting much steam and stuff from the back then cleared up.

    interestingly this is the 3rd starter i have had since that engine was installed < 2 years ago, it's always had moments of being hard for the starter to turn over, makes me wonder if this engine was stuffed when i paid $3500- to have it half installed...
    1990 205gti 8v, sv1000, zx6, sv650, zxr750, rgv250, austin 1800, fiat 124ac, fiat x1/9, 76 rd350, 124bc, lancia beta, yz125G, yz80h, yz50g, gtmx80c

  17. #17
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    Default 205 issues

    Check the basics first.

    Front pulleys (hamonic balancer) have a habit of rotating on themselves when the rubber sleeve lets go, causing the valve timing to alter radically.

    I recently had a 306 8v. pully turn about 25mm radially on the outer section.
    Apparently a very common problem

    I think from memory, keyway at top, timing hole should be at approx. 2.30 position.(Rhside)

    Alain

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! chez00's Avatar
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    I don't know if you know the history of this engine but if you have chewed 3 starters, the water's been there a long time. Same thing happened to my mate's chev in a boat.
    Head gasket might be all, but don't fall into the trap of putting a nice new head on just to find the wet sleeve base seal has let go... Get the gasket looked at when you pull it off by someone who deals with cylinder heads alot, i.e. a machinist. They should be able to tell whether the compromise has come from there. If not, it's either cracked or the base seal has given up. Seems to me that the XU heads are not prone to cracking.

    Just one last thing: an outside chance the problem is the inlet manifold gasket if yours has the coolant ports

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    Check the basics first.

    Front pulleys (hamonic balancer) have a habit of rotating on themselves when the rubber sleeve lets go, causing the valve timing to alter radically.

    I recently had a 306 8v. pully turn about 25mm radially on the outer section.
    Apparently a very common problem

    I think from memory, keyway at top, timing hole should be at approx. 2.30 position.(Rhside)

    Alain
    Harmonic balancers don't run the timing belt around them in 205GTI engines. Come to think of it I think it's a really poor design idea if they do in any car.

    Quote Originally Posted by chez00 View Post
    I don't know if you know the history of this engine but if you have chewed 3 starters, the water's been there a long time. Same thing happened to my mate's chev in a boat.
    Head gasket might be all, but don't fall into the trap of putting a nice new head on just to find the wet sleeve base seal has let go... Get the gasket looked at when you pull it off by someone who deals with cylinder heads alot, i.e. a machinist. They should be able to tell whether the compromise has come from there. If not, it's either cracked or the base seal has given up. Seems to me that the XU heads are not prone to cracking.

    Just one last thing: an outside chance the problem is the inlet manifold gasket if yours has the coolant ports
    Liner base seal if broken would not explain the coolant in the cylinder as then it would leak in the crankcase.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts cav91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Harmonic balancers don't run the timing belt around them in 205GTI engines. Come to think of it I think it's a really poor design idea if they do in any car.



    Liner base seal if broken would not explain the coolant in the cylinder as then it would leak in the crankcase.

    I think your right in both cases, however the hamonic balancer in dads 406 STDT broke in half and made it run absolutely terribly!
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  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    well i got it home anyway

    it has water in the oil today, but yesterday it didn't, however it blew the dipstick out this time and sprayed oil up the tube !! serious pressure in the crankcase

    hoping its just a head gasket blowing into the oil and water galleries...
    1990 205gti 8v, sv1000, zx6, sv650, zxr750, rgv250, austin 1800, fiat 124ac, fiat x1/9, 76 rd350, 124bc, lancia beta, yz125G, yz80h, yz50g, gtmx80c

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Harmonic balancers don't run the timing belt around them in 205GTI engines. Come to think of it I think it's a really poor design idea if they do in any car.



    Liner base seal if broken would not explain the coolant in the cylinder as then it would leak in the crankcase.
    205s don't have a harmonic balancer.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    Check the basics first.

    Front pulleys (hamonic balancer) have a habit of rotating on themselves when the rubber sleeve lets go, causing the valve timing to alter radically.

    I recently had a 306 8v. pully turn about 25mm radially on the outer section.
    Apparently a very common problem

    I think from memory, keyway at top, timing hole should be at approx. 2.30 position.(Rhside)

    Alain
    Timing doesn't alter when balancer slips, just the hole that you measure the timing with.
    Graham

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