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    Fellow Frogger! 505604's Avatar
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    Default No start HDi :(

    After praising my 406 HDi on here many times, it has finally left me in the lurch.

    I did have the injection pump replaced in January 2011 by a local diesel "specialist", but the car has never been the same since and they've made it worse each time they've looked at it. The car, however has soldiered on, despite their best efforts to kill it!

    Now the car won't start.

    Between Wagga Wagga and Melbourne, or in Melbourne, who do people recommend as capable to resurrect my 406? I don't know if this has to be a Peugeot person, or a diesel person. I'm open to recommendations. I think!

    My trusty old 505 Familiale will be towing the 406 on a car trailer to wherever it needs to go.

    Thanks,
    Andrew

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    Current cars: Peugeot 307 HDi Touring; Peugeot 306 Cabriolet; Peugeot 406 HDi, Peugeot 505 Familiale
    Previous cars: 1965 Peugeot 404; 1972 Renault 16TS; 1970 Peugeo 504 1800; 1978 Peugeot 504 GL; 1976 Peugeot 504 LTI; 1984 Peugeot 505 Familiale; 1982 Peugeot 604 (converted to TD) 1999 Peugeot 306 Cabriolet

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    Hi-Try Colin [email protected] Alpine Affaire-03 9879 1961.

    Pekay.

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    Hi-Try Colin [email protected] Alpine Affaire-03 9879 1961.Or Dave @ French Connection-03 9338 8 191

    Pekay.

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    Fellow Frogger! 505604's Avatar
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    Just phoned Alpine Affaire and spoke to Paul. Colin is off at the Grand Prix.
    Paul said 'alarm bells ringing' because he's never had to replace a high pressure fuel pump on a 406 HDi, but his first thought is the in tank fuel pump.
    Unfortunately, they're booked out for 3 weeks …
    Current cars: Peugeot 307 HDi Touring; Peugeot 306 Cabriolet; Peugeot 406 HDi, Peugeot 505 Familiale
    Previous cars: 1965 Peugeot 404; 1972 Renault 16TS; 1970 Peugeo 504 1800; 1978 Peugeot 504 GL; 1976 Peugeot 504 LTI; 1984 Peugeot 505 Familiale; 1982 Peugeot 604 (converted to TD) 1999 Peugeot 306 Cabriolet

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    Fellow Frogger! 908HDI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 505604 View Post
    After praising my 406 HDi on here many times, it has finally left me in the lurch.

    I did have the injection pump replaced in January 2011 by a local diesel "specialist", but the car has never been the same since and they've made it worse each time they've looked at it. The car, however has soldiered on, despite their best efforts to kill it!

    Now the car won't start.

    Between Wagga Wagga and Melbourne, or in Melbourne, who do people recommend as capable to resurrect my 406? I don't know if this has to be a Peugeot person, or a diesel person. I'm open to recommendations. I think!

    My trusty old 505 Familiale will be towing the 406 on a car trailer to wherever it needs to go.

    Thanks,
    Andrew

    Call out the NRMA and let them find out what it is. If you're a member its free. then simply obtain the relevant part and replace. If it is the fuel pump its not that hard to replace.

    You can test the fuel supply yourself by checking fuel filter flow via the bleed valve.

    The only other thing it could be is the fuel cut off solenoid. But the NRMA should be able to tell you.

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    Fellow Frogger! gromzx's Avatar
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    What was the original problem that made the mechanic replace the pump.
    Just curious because I own a 306 hdi. same engine.

    I've heard of some horror stories of mechanic spending $10000+ trying to fix hdi's and only making the problem worse because they have no idea how to work on a common rail diesel.
    I do all my own work on mine and never had any problems.

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    Fellow Frogger! 505604's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 908HDI View Post
    Call out the NRMA and let them find out what it is. If you're a member its free. then simply obtain the relevant part and replace. If it is the fuel pump its not that hard to replace.

    You can test the fuel supply yourself by checking fuel filter flow via the bleed valve.

    The only other thing it could be is the fuel cut off solenoid. But the NRMA should be able to tell you.
    I don't know if the NRMA is different elsewhere, but where I live, they see a Pug and they call a tow truck!

    Maybe I'm slightly exaggerating, but I'm not far wrong.
    Andrew
    Current cars: Peugeot 307 HDi Touring; Peugeot 306 Cabriolet; Peugeot 406 HDi, Peugeot 505 Familiale
    Previous cars: 1965 Peugeot 404; 1972 Renault 16TS; 1970 Peugeo 504 1800; 1978 Peugeot 504 GL; 1976 Peugeot 504 LTI; 1984 Peugeot 505 Familiale; 1982 Peugeot 604 (converted to TD) 1999 Peugeot 306 Cabriolet

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    1000+ Posts okalford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 505604 View Post
    I don't know if the NRMA is different elsewhere, but where I live, they see a Pug and they call a tow truck!

    Maybe I'm slightly exaggerating, but I'm not far wrong.
    Andrew
    Andrew, maybe give 504freak a call, he's a sponsor here and helped me get my 505 back on the road a few times. I found him very helpful and good to deal with. If he can't help you he might know someone who could. His workshop is in Brunswick, Melbourne, no is 0419 549 549

    K
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    Default 406 HDi Start. Issues

    Hi 505604,

    When you turn on ignition to start can you hear the lift pump in the tank humming?

    If not it's the lift pump (under rear seat)

    They can go suddenly with no warning.


    Alain

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    Fellow Frogger! 505604's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    Hi 505604,

    When you turn on ignition to start can you hear the lift pump in the tank humming?

    If not it's the lift pump (under rear seat)

    They can go suddenly with no warning.


    Alain
    Thanks for that. That's the one that Alpine Affaire was talking about this morning.

    I definitely hear that.
    Cheers,
    Andrew
    Current cars: Peugeot 307 HDi Touring; Peugeot 306 Cabriolet; Peugeot 406 HDi, Peugeot 505 Familiale
    Previous cars: 1965 Peugeot 404; 1972 Renault 16TS; 1970 Peugeo 504 1800; 1978 Peugeot 504 GL; 1976 Peugeot 504 LTI; 1984 Peugeot 505 Familiale; 1982 Peugeot 604 (converted to TD) 1999 Peugeot 306 Cabriolet

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    Fellow Frogger! 505604's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okalford View Post
    Andrew, maybe give 504freak a call, he's a sponsor here and helped me get my 505 back on the road a few times. I found him very helpful and good to deal with. If he can't help you he might know someone who could. His workshop is in Brunswick, Melbourne, no is 0419 549 549

    K
    Thanks, K,
    His number is now in my phone. I'll phone him soon!

    Andrew
    Current cars: Peugeot 307 HDi Touring; Peugeot 306 Cabriolet; Peugeot 406 HDi, Peugeot 505 Familiale
    Previous cars: 1965 Peugeot 404; 1972 Renault 16TS; 1970 Peugeo 504 1800; 1978 Peugeot 504 GL; 1976 Peugeot 504 LTI; 1984 Peugeot 505 Familiale; 1982 Peugeot 604 (converted to TD) 1999 Peugeot 306 Cabriolet

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    Fellow Frogger! 505604's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromzx View Post
    What was the original problem that made the mechanic replace the pump.
    Just curious because I own a 306 hdi. same engine.

    I've heard of some horror stories of mechanic spending $10000+ trying to fix hdi's and only making the problem worse because they have no idea how to work on a common rail diesel.
    I do all my own work on mine and never had any problems.
    The initial problem, as I recall, was also a 'no start'. I was driving along, engine light came on, engine stalled, wouldn't clutch start. Wouldn't key start.
    NRMA came, and from what I recall, said that it being a common rail diesel, they weren't going to open anything up on the side of the road. They organised a tow truck to my mechanic, and left me there.
    My mechanic didn't feel confident with dealing with whatever was the problem. (I'd only just started going to him at that stage.) The local diesel "specialist" is about 250 metres away from him and has 'all the proper tools and equipment' to service all kinds of diesels and turbos, so the car was pushed to him.
    He said that his computer/scan tool indicated that the high pressure fuel pump had failed and he quoted $1500 to supply and install a new Bosch one.
    $2500 later
    Anything I've missed out or if you want to know more, feel free to ask.

    Andrew
    Current cars: Peugeot 307 HDi Touring; Peugeot 306 Cabriolet; Peugeot 406 HDi, Peugeot 505 Familiale
    Previous cars: 1965 Peugeot 404; 1972 Renault 16TS; 1970 Peugeo 504 1800; 1978 Peugeot 504 GL; 1976 Peugeot 504 LTI; 1984 Peugeot 505 Familiale; 1982 Peugeot 604 (converted to TD) 1999 Peugeot 306 Cabriolet

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    Member Gregbathurst's Avatar
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    This is why I wouldn't buy another common rail turbo diesel. They are great cars when working but when they give trouble very hard to get fixed if you live in a regional area. In Bathurst there is only one mechanic who will even look at a diesel and he doesn't have much expertise. Everything gets sent to the specialist in orange but he is always booked 3-4 weeks ahead. I had to send my car to collier's in granville last time, was only a pressure sensor. Basically you are at the mercy of dealers, if you are out of warranty any repairs will cost a packet and take forever.
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    Fellow Frogger! 505604's Avatar
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    That's up to you, Greg.

    I happen to really enjoy mine, and would buy it again, even if the same problem(s) reoccurred. I would just take it elsewhere for repairs.
    Current cars: Peugeot 307 HDi Touring; Peugeot 306 Cabriolet; Peugeot 406 HDi, Peugeot 505 Familiale
    Previous cars: 1965 Peugeot 404; 1972 Renault 16TS; 1970 Peugeo 504 1800; 1978 Peugeot 504 GL; 1976 Peugeot 504 LTI; 1984 Peugeot 505 Familiale; 1982 Peugeot 604 (converted to TD) 1999 Peugeot 306 Cabriolet

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    Quote Originally Posted by 505604 View Post
    He said that his computer/scan tool indicated that the high pressure fuel pump had failed and he quoted $1500 to supply and install a new Bosch one.
    I don't think that the computer on these engines will indicate a pump fault as its purely mechanical. I think that it will only indicate a fuel rail pressure fault, which could be a number of things.
    Have you experienced any surging or uneven acceleration, especially in cold weather and cold engine, before the engine stopped?

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    Default 306 hdi

    yes sounds like the tank pump ,cutting out at a certain revs and engine light, tank pumpI had all this written up on[ 306 hdi cutting out ] no pressure in rail fault code, was diagnosed as mechanical pump ,was replaced but fault persisted ,turns out that the mech pump only pushes and dousnt suck so if it isnt getting enough from the tank pump for some reason [blocked in tank filter] it wont rev beyond a certain point ,ecu shuts down with fuel starvation[if this happens we found the best procedure was to get out lock the car unlock it get in and it would start ] when i removed the pump and connected it to a battery its start intermitently give it a bump and it would start [worn brushes ]dont be tempted to use an aftermarket pump as i did cos it worked for a while then carked it ,finaly fitted a second hand pump from wreckers and it hasnt missed a beat PUGS ps turning the ignition on and off a few times before starting can help to prime the mechanical pump

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    Fellow Frogger! 505604's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromzx View Post
    I don't think that the computer on these engines will indicate a pump fault as its purely mechanical. I think that it will only indicate a fuel rail pressure fault, which could be a number of things.
    Interesting! The things you learn
    Have you experienced any surging or uneven acceleration, especially in cold weather and cold engine, before the engine stopped?
    There was something which I would have described more like hesitation, not surging, as though the engine lost power. Sometimes the engine would run, but there was no acceleration even with my foot 'flat to the floor'.
    Apart from sometimes being hard to start - ie, not starting at all - mostly these issues occurred in hot weather or when the engine was hot.

    Andrew
    Current cars: Peugeot 307 HDi Touring; Peugeot 306 Cabriolet; Peugeot 406 HDi, Peugeot 505 Familiale
    Previous cars: 1965 Peugeot 404; 1972 Renault 16TS; 1970 Peugeo 504 1800; 1978 Peugeot 504 GL; 1976 Peugeot 504 LTI; 1984 Peugeot 505 Familiale; 1982 Peugeot 604 (converted to TD) 1999 Peugeot 306 Cabriolet

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    Fellow Frogger! gromzx's Avatar
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    hhhmmm.
    got me stumped.
    There was something which I would have described more like hesitation, not surging, as though the engine lost power. Sometimes the engine would run, but there was no acceleration even with my foot 'flat to the floor'.
    did it blow lots of smoke when it did this or make any noises, or did it seem like nothing was happening at all.

    on a side note:
    If you want to get any components bench tested, you could try Cornells (http://www.cornells.com.au/)
    They have a lot of testing equipment there and you can get original Bosch parts from them for half the cost of the dealer.
    never used there mechanics though. I'm not to shore about them because the first word out of there mouth every time i speak to them is PUMP

    hope you can get this sorted soon.

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    the fuel rail pressure is normally 300 bar at idle. the ECU will not fire the injectors unless it sees at least 120 bar in the rail.
    lack of rail pressure can be caused by a number of things:-
    Lack of pressure from the pump tank
    Damaged high pressure pump
    Pressure regulator (in the HP pump) stuck open
    Faulty rail pressure sensor or wiring
    Pressure leaking through a faulty injector

    The mechanic should use diagnostic equipment to view the rail pressure in live data as the engine is cranked. If it goes above 120bar then the non-start is caused by something else (such as immobiliser fault).

    If the pressure is below 120 bar then he should check and clean the regulator and check the tank pump before condemning the HP pump

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! 505604's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromzx View Post
    did it blow lots of smoke when it did this or make any noises, or did it seem like nothing was happening at all.
    No smoke. No noise. Just nothing. Failed to proceed, as Rolls Royce drivers are reputed to say

    on a side note:
    If you want to get any components bench tested, you could try Cornells (http://www.cornells.com.au/)
    They have a lot of testing equipment there and you can get original Bosch parts from them for half the cost of the dealer.
    never used there mechanics though. I'm not to shore about them because the first word out of there mouth every time i speak to them is PUMP
    I wonder if that's where one dealer I know gets his parts from. He told me that he doesn't use genuine Pug parts as they're too expensive

    hope you can get this sorted soon.
    Thanks. So do I!
    Current cars: Peugeot 307 HDi Touring; Peugeot 306 Cabriolet; Peugeot 406 HDi, Peugeot 505 Familiale
    Previous cars: 1965 Peugeot 404; 1972 Renault 16TS; 1970 Peugeo 504 1800; 1978 Peugeot 504 GL; 1976 Peugeot 504 LTI; 1984 Peugeot 505 Familiale; 1982 Peugeot 604 (converted to TD) 1999 Peugeot 306 Cabriolet

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    Fellow Frogger! 505604's Avatar
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    Thanks for that info, dieselnutjob.

    One mechanic I spoke to talked about 'replacing the injectors'. I asked why (because he hadn't put the car onto any scanner, and he said that because the car had done over 450 000 km, the injectors would have 'had it by now'. How much will that cost me? I asked. Oh, not much. About a grand. Without even putting the car onto the computer? And he wanted me to fork out a grand? Some mechanics like to dream!

    Another dealer I phoned and described the problem to said that it was probably my ECU and he wasn't sure if they were still available. He didn't want to know any more without me taking the car there and leaving it with him so he could diagnose @ $110/hour. Is that normal?

    Andrew
    PS Thanks to all who have taken an interest in this for me.
    Current cars: Peugeot 307 HDi Touring; Peugeot 306 Cabriolet; Peugeot 406 HDi, Peugeot 505 Familiale
    Previous cars: 1965 Peugeot 404; 1972 Renault 16TS; 1970 Peugeo 504 1800; 1978 Peugeot 504 GL; 1976 Peugeot 504 LTI; 1984 Peugeot 505 Familiale; 1982 Peugeot 604 (converted to TD) 1999 Peugeot 306 Cabriolet

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    Fellow Frogger! young 4 old pug's Avatar
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    PM sent.
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    too many.

    Passed over stash
    lots.

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    Fellow Frogger! tomb's Avatar
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    If you are bringing the car to Melbourne, Rankin Diesel Injection Service in Bayswater, 9762 9133.

    Ring them and discuss before going.


    If you want to spend alot Morassi and Williams in Wliiamstown.


    Both of these will solve the problem.
    Last edited by tomb; 22nd March 2012 at 06:00 PM. Reason: phone number

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    Fellow Frogger! gromzx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dieselnutjob View Post
    Pressure regulator (in the HP pump) stuck open
    This part is a common fault for these engines.
    Knowing what Bosch is like, the new pump most likely did not come with one, and the mechanic may have just fitted the old one to the new pump not knowing that it should be replaced.

    Quote Originally Posted by 505604
    One mechanic I spoke to talked about 'replacing the injectors'. I asked why (because he hadn't put the car onto any scanner, and he said that because the car had done over 450 000 km, the injectors would have 'had it by now'. How much will that cost me? I asked. Oh, not much. About a grand. Without even putting the car onto the computer? And he wanted me to fork out a grand? Some mechanics like to dream!
    The injectors are $400 each at least, so he was dreaming alright.
    Also if an injector was leaking, the symptoms when it was running would have included lots of black smoke and/or diesel knock - Vary loud, you can't miss it.

  25. #25
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    when HDI injectors go in my experience it sounds a bit like pinking which stops as the revs go higher than 3200rpm. The reason for this is that pre-injection is not used above 3200rpm. The pinking noise is caused by the injectors opening for preinjection and then not closing again properly which effectively causes the timing to become too advanced

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