306 S16 gearbox removal
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    Default 306 S16 gearbox removal

    OK So I thought I'd start a new thread. I'm pulling the box out of the S16 (at least I'm trying). Things are not looking good at the moment. Diff housing is cracked and I found what looks like part of a diff gear (the tapered ones) in the bell housing.

    I haven't got very far yet. I got to the point where the Haynes manual says to remove the starter motor but I'm really struggling to see how to do it.

    I'm not even sure that it is necessary, as a GTi6 walkthrough http://www.306gti6.com/forum/showthr...d=29561&page=1 doesn't mention removing the starter motor.

    I'll continue on with other steps and come back and check if anyone has any advice about the starter

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    Tony.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 306 S16 gearbox removal-dsc_0480.jpg   306 S16 gearbox removal-dsc_0481.jpg  
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    Just got confirmation from bobomacho that the starter has to come out. and have realised I'm looking in the wrong place! Back for another look

    Tony.
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    It looks like I have to take off the black part of the inlet manifold in order to get at the starter motor. Going to have a break and go buy a 36mm socket for the drive shaft nuts. Biggest I have is 34mm

    Tony.
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

  4. #4
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    I've learn't with these cars that you just need to remove what ever is in the way. No use trying to get at it from another angle. I'm not sure, someone will have to confirm, but I think you can just undo the starter motor (3 bolts) and leave it hanging there under the inlet manifold still hooked up to the wiring loom.
    Lets just say we have a few pugs about!

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    Thanks hipcrostino, I've been looking at pictures of the engine in various states of dismantledness, and it looks like the starter motor bolts are on the throttlebody side of the bell housing. There also appears to be a bracket on the back of the starter motor. This may explain why the GTI-6 instructions don't mention removing the starter, it may be the instructions show removal of the starter motor bolts, but don't actually say that's what they are The removal of the plastic part of the inlet manifold doesn't look too hard anyway, so I might just take it off anyway, and give it a good cleanout. Based on the muck (thick oil from the breather hoses) I can seen in the throttlebody I suspect there will be gunk in the manifold as well.

    Tony.
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts cav91's Avatar
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    Don't forget 2 11 mm nuts where the driveshaft goes through the rear engine mounts. SOOooo many people destroy their shafts from not knowing about these nuts!

    The starter bolts are on the gearbox side of the bell housing. From the outside. Throttle body has to come of first (or at the least the bracket it connects to), much easier to remove whole throttle body and bracket. One of the starter bolts is parts of the throtle body mount. So remove 16mm nut first, then throttle body, then the 16mm bolt under neith. If this sounds confusing it will much simpler when you have a look!
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  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    Thanks cav91! I know the ones you mean (the bolts for the driveshaft) which reminds me, I need to get a 36mm socket for the driveshaft nuts! neither bunnings nor repco had one.

    Hopefully on Saturday with the help posted I'll be able to get moving again!

    Tony.
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

  8. #8
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    Yep, sadly most socket sets run out at 32mm. If you can't find a 36mm, 1 3/16" is close enough. I run my axle nuts on and off with a 3/4" electric rattle gun, makes things really easy. Just have to be careful when running the nuts back on, could easily go overboard.

    Cheers.
    racing 405
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  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    I have an 1 1/2 inch socket somewhere (might be in storage) but I guess that is too big. Was for the flywheel nut on the morrie 1100

    There is a place nearby which has a 1/2 drive 36mm http://www.justkampersaustralia.com/...ve-j14393.html Not open on weekends though, if it is close enough to the station I might be able to leave work early and pick one up, otherwise I probably should pay the extra $13 for postage . I'm a bit concerned how cheap it is, but I guess It's not going to be getting much work, and they are selling them for use on VW driveshaft nuts..

    Tony.
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    Well I've made some progress today. Just having a small break. I've got the starter out.

    The O-Ring where the throttle body connects to the inlet manifold is stuffed, about a 1" piece of it missing!! hopefully I can get one.

    Scrapnel fell out when I took out the starter, and the gear on the starter is looking a bit worn (probably not surprising after 235,000 odd KM.

    Also I suspect the main seal has gone, based on the amount of oldish looking black oil on the starter, either that or oil has been getting in through the holes in the bell housing (they are covered in similar black oil).

    Oh and the oil filler and related pipes are shockingly dirty, full of grimy black gunk! will be getting a real clean out!!

    anyway back to it I guess!

    Tony.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 306 S16 gearbox removal-dsc_0520.jpg   306 S16 gearbox removal-dsc_0532.jpg   306 S16 gearbox removal-dsc_0533.jpg  
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    So the gearbox is still in the car I've called it a day. I don't have the stamina to work on a car for 16 hours straight that I used to

    I got to the point where I was going to start on removing the driveshafts. Man are the nuts tight! I thought I had a 3/4 to 1/2 inch adapter, but I actually had a 1/2 to 3/4" adaptor (no doubt for my torque wrench). I tried with the torque wrench but there was no way it was going to budge with that.

    My 3/4" bar is about 24" I think. Even if I get an adaptor I don't think I'll be able to shift it with that. Electric rattle gun is looking like it will be needed.

    The only other thing that gave me any grief was one of the gear change linkages. getting it off was rather a chore until I realized there was a bracket I could use for leverage.

    I think I'll be off in search of an adaptor and possibly a rattle gun tomorrow.

    Tony.
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

  12. #12
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    It's a pain in the ass, but the box can be removed without removing the driveshaft nuts...

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    For a case of Corona you can borrow my driveshaft nut removal tools.

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  14. #14
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    You used your torque wrench to try and undo nuts????? Those driveshaft nuts will be as tight as hell. I'd get about a 1 1/2 metre bar onto them, 3/4" drive socket etc. No doubt there's a quick way when you know the best way to shock them loose.

    Good luck with the job. I have seen a few 206/Berlingo van gearboxes stuff bits of the diff through the housing. So bad luck on that score.
    JohnW

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  15. #15
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    and it's 35mm, not 36.

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  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    Thanks Peter, I thought that the 36mm seemed a bit loose (I'm glad I only spent $10.65 on it) but I figured it was like my metrinches (ie drives on the flat rather that the corners). I might take you up on your offer, what do your tools consist of? I can't see myself pulling drive shafts out often enough to buy any specialised tools.

    The torque wrench was just used for a wishful thinking attempt at removal since I couldn't put the 3/4" bar on it and it was by far the longest 1/2 drive tool I had. put it on the max of 150 foot pounds but didn't pull on it hard enough to get it to click. I didn't think that the bolts would be so tight!! 150 foot pounds was the highest torque of any bolt on my morrie 1100, driveshaft nuts, and flywheel were both that from memory. I spent hours with an impact driver once on the morrie flywheel nut after some knob did it up tighter than hell probably with a rattle gun. In the end my girlfiend got sick of the noise and went and hired an electric rattle gun. It got it off, but I had to persist for 15 minutes before it shook loose!

    Tony.
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wintermute View Post
    In the end my girlfiend got sick of the noise and went and hired an electric rattle gun. It got it off, but I had to persist for 15 minutes before it shook loose!

    Tony.
    Where can I find a woman like that????



    Jo

  18. #18
    sans witticism SLC206's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wintermute View Post
    Thanks Peter, I thought that the 36mm seemed a bit loose (I'm glad I only spent $10.65 on it) but I figured it was like my metrinches (ie drives on the flat rather that the corners). I might take you up on your offer, what do your tools consist of? I can't see myself pulling drive shafts out often enough to buy any specialised tools.
    35mm for some reason is very hard to find. 1 3/8" is an almost direct replacement and they seem to be easier to get. 3/4" drive is the go.
    Regards,

    Simon

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  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    Well I went to repco this morning and got a cheapie 12V electric rattle gun which was on special for $60. It didn't seem to be doing the job so I went to bunnings and got a 3/4 to 1/2" adaptor and a 1M length of steel pipe (22mm inside diameter 1.2mm thick) which fits neatly over my 300mm 3/4" breaker bar.

    Put the bar on the nut and it came off easily. I think the rattle gun had almost got there. I went and tried the right side but it was tough so I hit it with the rattle gun for a while and tried again and it slacked off nicely. All with just the access plates removed and the wheels on the ground I only slacened them off just enough so I won't have difficulty once the car is up on the stands again, as the haynes manual says not to put any weight on the wheels if the driveshafts are out or risk damaging the hub bearings.

    I ended up using the 36mm socket because I found someone who said he'd been using one for years without ever damaging a driveshaft nut.

    The rattle gun may come in handy for getting the flywheel nut off as well but I'll wait till I've got the gearbox out before I start thinking about that!!

    edit: oh and Jo, can't help you there I have a couple of cousins who would probably fit the bill but they are both taken

    Tony.
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wintermute View Post
    edit: oh and Jo, can't help you there I have a couple of cousins who would probably fit the bill but they are both taken

    Tony.
    The penny just dropped that that is the second time I've commented on your girlfriend.....

    You are a lucky guy. She's a keeper for sure.

    Jo

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    haha I suspect the other time was my wife, the one in this thread was my old girfriend who decided she wanted to move to Spain. But my wife has been very understanding about how much time I've been spending the last two weekends working on the car!

    I still don't have the box out (I must be the worlds slowest mechainic ) . I got to the point where I only need to remove a couple more bolts and the gearbox mount and it is ready to come out.

    I decided to call it quits as everything else has taken much longer than I anticipated, and I was feeling pretty tired (even though I only spent a couple of hours today). I didn't want to start and have to leave the trolley jack under the gearbox for a few days if I found it wasn't going as smooth as planned.

    So it looks like it will be coming out next weekend now

    I think it is going to be public transport for a bit longer than I originally thought. But I'd rather take it slowly and not stuff anything up, I might have finally learned that lesson after many years!

    Tony.
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    Another question, Do I need a new clutch cable when I do the clutch? I'm geussing the current one will have auto adjusted itself up to take up the wear in the clutch??

    The one in the car at the moment is about 5 years old. The original one died at about the 10 year mark (the platic bit on the clutch pedal broke) , and then another one a year after that (the actual cable snapped near the clutch pedal!).

    Tony.
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

  23. #23
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    I'd leave it, but its good preventative maintenance. By the looks of things it may add an extra week to your labour times

    Gil

  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    you are probably right!! doing the throttle cable was an absolute PITA (mainly the pedal end) I'm guessing that the clutch cable is similarly painful!

    I once pulled the engine out of my morris 1100, flywheel off, separated transmission, retrieved the distributor drive (don't ask) put it all back together and had it back in the car and running ready to drive in less than 3 hours (it may have even been less than two hours). I had admittedly only just reassembled the motor and put it back in, so nothing was frozen up and I knew exactly where everything was. I had also pulled the engine out at least 3 times prior to that too . But I tell you what, there was a lot of swearing going on and some threats to torch it before I calmed down and got to the task at hand

    Tony.
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    For anyone reading this thread, I'd strongly advise to get the correct size 35mm socket for the driveshaft nuts! Please see this post showing the damage to the driveshaft nuts that I incurred getting them off. Changing the lower engine mount on a GTI6 So perhaps my comment about having learned the lesson about not rushing things was premature


    The Quaife arrived today I really hope that this gearbox is coming out this weekend!!

    I went down to the car this evening to check the number on the throttle position sensor and noticed that the butterfly's in the inlet manifold are not even. The two drivers side ones are completely level when in the open position, but the two near side ones are not fully open. I think that the vacuum pot spindle is going to be getting an adjustment! No doubt when I replaced them the nearside one was not quite right. Not sure how much of a difference it would make but it must cause at least some imbalance. The manifold picture actually shows something else that I'm sure could affect performance, but I'm not going to try doing anything about it at this stage as to do it properly the head would need to come off. The intake ports do not line up properly with the manifold! you can see the shiny bits on the edges. I'm sure this must cause turbulence in the ports, I can't imagine that is supposed to be there..

    Tony.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 306 S16 gearbox removal-dsc_0549.jpg   306 S16 gearbox removal-dsc_0548.jpg  
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

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