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Thread: 504 Fuel pump

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Doush_504's Avatar
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    Default 504 Fuel pump

    Hi everyone,
    I am suspecting a leaking pump (I have the metal type pump) so I bought a new one with the plastic body. Any dos and don'ts in case I decided to do it myself ? I also bought a fuel filter and some hoses to freshen things up, anything else I should change ?
    Attached are the pics of the old pump and hoses and the new one along with the gasket and a warning paper which I don't quite understand.

    Cheers

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    504 Fuel pump-img_4406.jpg  
    Chadi

    1982 504 SR white manual sedan with A/C (257 000 Km)
    2012 308 1.6 VTi Vapor Grey manual H/B (35000 Km)
    1994 405 1.6 white manual sedan (208 000 Km)
    1992 605 SV24 (91 000 Km)
    2005 406 2.0L automatic (Replaced with a 2013 C5)
    1983 505 GR white manual sedan with A/C (170000 Km)

    All since new


  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Peter Chisholm's Avatar
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    The instructions are advising you to take note of the existing gasket and spacer (if there is one).

    When refitting, it is important to maintain the same distance between the pump body flange and the face on the engine block.

    If the gap is too large or too small then you won't have fuel flow.

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! Doush_504's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Chisholm View Post
    The instructions are advising you to take note of the existing gasket and spacer (if there is one).

    When refitting, it is important to maintain the same distance between the pump body flange and the face on the engine block.

    If the gap is too large or too small then you won't have fuel flow.
    Is this gap controlled by the amount of torque applied to the 2 bolts or just by the presence (or abcence) of the spacer ?
    Chadi

    1982 504 SR white manual sedan with A/C (257 000 Km)
    2012 308 1.6 VTi Vapor Grey manual H/B (35000 Km)
    1994 405 1.6 white manual sedan (208 000 Km)
    1992 605 SV24 (91 000 Km)
    2005 406 2.0L automatic (Replaced with a 2013 C5)
    1983 505 GR white manual sedan with A/C (170000 Km)

    All since new


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    Fellow Frogger! Molerpa's Avatar
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    second.


    Quote Originally Posted by luthier View Post
    It is simply impractical to expect a petrol motor to get through too much water. That's why God invented diesels.

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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Here's a "don't".

    In a few years time when it's time to change the fuel hoses, pull them off the pump without twisting to one side. The small plastic tubes sticking out of the pump break off easily.
    You can twist the hose, but do not bend it to one side.

    What the paper says is basically that if there was a spacer, use it again. Don't use the pump without a spacer.
    It's better to use two paper gaskets. If you have some gasket paper you can make a second one easily. Or use one old gasket.....just use it in the same place and the same way around as it was. ( In fact, one of the old gaskets may stick to the engine....just leave it there if you don't have 2 new gaskets).
    The picture shows a circular gasket, but that is probably for some other type car. They are just using the same information sheet for a few cars.
    By the way, the spacer is only made of bakelite, which is an early type of plastic. Don't do up the bolts TOO tight as the bakelite spacer may crack.
    Last edited by Beano; 7th March 2012 at 07:37 PM.

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts Peter Chisholm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doush_504 View Post
    Is this gap controlled by the amount of torque applied to the 2 bolts or just by the presence (or abcence) of the spacer ?
    Actually, I've never encountered a 504 fuel pump with a spacer but maybe I'm living in the past.
    It could be that they've changed the design or are using a pump from something else.

    In the past, that gap wasn't controlled by torque.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Chisholm View Post
    Actually, I've never encountered a 504 fuel pump with a spacer but maybe I'm living in the past.
    It could be that they've changed the design or are using a pump from something else.

    In the past, that gap wasn't controlled by torque.
    No, never seen a spacer in 40 years of dealing with these pumps.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Chisholm View Post
    Actually, I've never encountered a 504 fuel pump with a spacer but maybe I'm living in the past.
    It could be that they've changed the design or are using a pump from something else.

    In the past, that gap wasn't controlled by torque.
    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    No, never seen a spacer in 40 years of dealing with these pumps.
    If there is no spacer and no specific tightening torque (only not too much according to Beano), then how do I do this ?!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Chisholm View Post
    The instructions are advising you to take note of the existing gasket and spacer (if there is one).

    When refitting, it is important to maintain the same distance between the pump body flange and the face on the engine block.

    If the gap is too large or too small then you won't have fuel flow.
    And another question please, should the car be cutting out/hesitating due to the leakage or not ?
    Chadi

    1982 504 SR white manual sedan with A/C (257 000 Km)
    2012 308 1.6 VTi Vapor Grey manual H/B (35000 Km)
    1994 405 1.6 white manual sedan (208 000 Km)
    1992 605 SV24 (91 000 Km)
    2005 406 2.0L automatic (Replaced with a 2013 C5)
    1983 505 GR white manual sedan with A/C (170000 Km)

    All since new


  9. #9
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    No, never seen a spacer in 40 years of dealing with these pumps.
    The spacer could be on a engine other than Peugeot or one of the Pug models we never saw.

    The pumps were pretty standard fitment for a few engines of the era.

    I've never seen a spacer either.

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts 504-504-504's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doush_504 View Post
    If there is no spacer and no specific tightening torque (only not too much according to Beano), then how do I do this ?!?!



    And another question please, should the car be cutting out/hesitating due to the leakage or not ?
    This is where the Niki carby that came on my Bellett ( and later fitted to a 203) would have come in handy.
    It had a glass side on it so you could see the fuel level and float position.
    Why didn't other carby manufacturers pick up on that idea?

    Paul

    "A straight is merely the distance between two corners."

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Peter Chisholm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doush_504 View Post
    If there is no spacer and no specific tightening torque (only not too much according to Beano), then how do I do this ?!?!



    And another question please, should the car be cutting out/hesitating due to the leakage or not ?
    If there wasn't a spacer fitted, just a gasket, only fit a new gasket.

    Buried in the official Peugeot workshop manual there is probably a torque setting somewhere but it's not that critical. Tightened up firmly and with a spring washer should be enough but remember, it isn't a test of strength. The thing is, it's a bit difficult describing a degree of tightness over the Net. If you're not sure, ask a friend who is into cars.

    The engine cutting out could be caused by lots of things. I would fit the new pump, ensuring there are no fuel leaks, then tackle the cutting out/hesitating if it is still happening.

  12. #12
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    The machining of new pumps or new parts in general may be slightly different to the original process.

    I would therefore put the two next to each other and check depth of the machined connecting side of the pump compared to the old one. You can use a simple depth guage. If its the same then don't worry about the spacer. In any case if it does not work without the spacer then the answer is obvious. Also pay attention to see if the plunger on the new pump is more proud or shallow compared to the old one.

    The bolt torque can not achieve an adjustment without a spacer, or a spacer designed to allow that. I would not overtighten the bolts. Just clean them up and apply some thread lock.

    If the pump does not solve the cutting out / hesitation then it could be a bit of dirt in the carby. That is providing there is nothing wrong with the ignition.

    Have you tested the coil, HT leads ? Distributor cap, Rotor arm, contacts ? Also check connections on low tension wires. A new set of plugs made a big difference to my Ti...
    Last edited by 908HDI; 8th March 2012 at 10:25 AM.

  13. #13
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    The thing is, there is no hesitation or cutting out what so ever and no fuel smell when I open the bonnet with the car running.
    My problem is the relatively high fuel consumption, it uses 10L/100Km with 60~70% highway driving. Plugs have 8k on them (they are NGK Iridiums which are supposed to last for 100k), oil is 2k old (Valvoline Maxlife 10w40), electronic ignition in good shape, 4 10k old Continental Eco Contacts (which are supposed to reduce fuel consumption) inflated at 34 psi and no engine driven fan.

    What really astonishes me is that the week I installed the new tires, I got significantly better consumption and next fill up (always same station) it went back to 10L/100Km. Same happened the week I removed the engine driven fan (mine was fixed, so running all the time).

    Any ideas ?
    Chadi

    1982 504 SR white manual sedan with A/C (257 000 Km)
    2012 308 1.6 VTi Vapor Grey manual H/B (35000 Km)
    1994 405 1.6 white manual sedan (208 000 Km)
    1992 605 SV24 (91 000 Km)
    2005 406 2.0L automatic (Replaced with a 2013 C5)
    1983 505 GR white manual sedan with A/C (170000 Km)

    All since new


  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! 908HDI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doush_504 View Post
    The thing is, there is no hesitation or cutting out what so ever and no fuel smell when I open the bonnet with the car running.
    My problem is the relatively high fuel consumption, it uses 10L/100Km with 60~70% highway driving. Plugs have 8k on them (they are NGK Iridiums which are supposed to last for 100k), oil is 2k old (Valvoline Maxlife 10w40), electronic ignition in good shape, 4 10k old Continental Eco Contacts (which are supposed to reduce fuel consumption) inflated at 34 psi and no engine driven fan.

    What really astonishes me is that the week I installed the new tires, I got significantly better consumption and next fill up (always same station) it went back to 10L/100Km. Same happened the week I removed the engine driven fan (mine was fixed, so running all the time).

    Any ideas ?
    10L/100km does not sound bad on a 504. The ambient temperature will make a difference to fuel consumption. The hotter the air the less efficient the combustion.

    I would still pull the plugs out to check gaps and deposits. Also check the rest of the ignition. Although the plugs are really good it does not mean to say that the spark is ideal for the combustion chamber. I used Bosch platinums in my Ti for a while but found the double copper Champions work much better...

    Have you got an oil bath filter on yours ?

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts Peter Chisholm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 908HDI View Post
    10L/100km does not sound bad on a 504. The ambient temperature will make a difference to fuel consumption. The hotter the air the less efficient the combustion.

    I would still pull the plugs out to check gaps and deposits. Also check the rest of the ignition. Although the plugs are really good it does not mean to say that the spark is ideal for the combustion chamber. I used Bosch platinums in my Ti for a while but found the double copper Champions work much better...

    Have you got an oil bath filter on yours ?
    I agree, 10L/100Km doesn't sound bad to me either. Not sure what any of my 504s achieved.

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! Doush_504's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 908HDI View Post
    10L/100km does not sound bad on a 504. The ambient temperature will make a difference to fuel consumption. The hotter the air the less efficient the combustion.

    I would still pull the plugs out to check gaps and deposits. Also check the rest of the ignition. Although the plugs are really good it does not mean to say that the spark is ideal for the combustion chamber. I used Bosch platinums in my Ti for a while but found the double copper Champions work much better...

    Have you got an oil bath filter on yours ?
    Temps these days are around 10~20 so combustion should be pretty efficient. Gaps on Iridium plugs cannot be adjusted because the electrode is extremely thin so they have a notice saying not to try to mess with it. I could pull them anyway and have a look.

    I do have an oil bath filter last cleaned 12k ago and I am intending to clean it again soon but if you're thinking about a clogged filter I can tell you that acceleration is pretty good and I have no trouble at all reaching 130-140 kph on certain overtaking or show off occasions while usually sticking to the more economical 90-100 kph.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Chisholm View Post
    I agree, 10L/100Km doesn't sound bad to me either. Not sure what any of my 504s achieved.
    I know it's "not bad" but why does it get better for a few days after I do a certain fuel saving mod and next fillup goes back up again ???
    Chadi

    1982 504 SR white manual sedan with A/C (257 000 Km)
    2012 308 1.6 VTi Vapor Grey manual H/B (35000 Km)
    1994 405 1.6 white manual sedan (208 000 Km)
    1992 605 SV24 (91 000 Km)
    2005 406 2.0L automatic (Replaced with a 2013 C5)
    1983 505 GR white manual sedan with A/C (170000 Km)

    All since new


  17. #17
    bob
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    G'day,

    Quote Originally Posted by Doush_504 View Post
    Hi everyone,
    I am suspecting a leaking pump.......anything else I should change ......
    yep, ditch the mechanical pump and fit a modern electric impulse type pump near the fuel tank with a good filter on the inlet of the pump. Also, use rubber grommets on the mounting holes to isolate the thing from the body. The smaller one is the one to go for, 4 cyl, the more expensive higher rated ones generally have too high a pressure for our old froggies.

    No more churning over to fill the carby bowl, and, if your system is one those that use the bleed back to to tank to "regulate" the fuel pressure you will get rid of high pressure fluctuations in the system stressing out the carby needle and seat and giving you a rich mixture leading to high fuel consumption and less power for your money.

    You will, of course, have to make up a little cover plate to go over the existing block mount for mechanical pump.

    cheers,
    Bob

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    It's interesting to see how people view problems in completely different ways.
    Yes, a worn out needle and seat may be causing the high fuel consumption. But why should it vary ?
    There may be some other factor causing this.....something we have not thought of yet.

    10 litres/100km is not bad, really. I wish I was getting that on my 505. I have an automatic and I think it gets about 12

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts Peter Chisholm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doush_504 View Post
    Temps these days are around 10~20 so combustion should be pretty efficient. Gaps on Iridium plugs cannot be adjusted because the electrode is extremely thin so they have a notice saying not to try to mess with it. I could pull them anyway and have a look.

    I do have an oil bath filter last cleaned 12k ago and I am intending to clean it again soon but if you're thinking about a clogged filter I can tell you that acceleration is pretty good and I have no trouble at all reaching 130-140 kph on certain overtaking or show off occasions while usually sticking to the more economical 90-100 kph.


    I know it's "not bad" but why does it get better for a few days after I do a certain fuel saving mod and next fillup goes back up again ???
    In other words, to me, 10L/100Km sounds about what you would expect. When you say it does get better, how much better? Exactly what is the improved consumption figure? My old 1988 1.6L manual Corolla returns, according to specs, 7.3L/100Km. From experience, I know it uses quite a bit less fuel than any 504 I've owned.

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! Doush_504's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Chisholm View Post
    In other words, to me, 10L/100Km sounds about what you would expect. When you say it does get better, how much better? Exactly what is the improved consumption figure?
    It got 9L/100Km when I removed the engine driven fan and 9.5 when I installed the new tires.
    Chadi

    1982 504 SR white manual sedan with A/C (257 000 Km)
    2012 308 1.6 VTi Vapor Grey manual H/B (35000 Km)
    1994 405 1.6 white manual sedan (208 000 Km)
    1992 605 SV24 (91 000 Km)
    2005 406 2.0L automatic (Replaced with a 2013 C5)
    1983 505 GR white manual sedan with A/C (170000 Km)

    All since new


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