504/505 electronic ignition
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default 504/505 electronic ignition

    Have an opportunity to pick up the elctronic ignition system from a '84 505 STI (XN6), just wanted to verify that this would work on my '74 504GL XN1. My understanding is that all 505's have elctronic ignition and that any pre-87 505 ignition system can be dropped into the 504 assuming I get the distributor, coil and control module. If so, where is the control module located on the 505? thanks

    russ

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    Fellow Frogger! Bruce Llewellyn's Avatar
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    Default control module

    Hi,

    It appears to be combined with the coil pack on the RH inner gaurd on my SLi wagon, but I havn't fiddled with it much yet, so I may be wrong. It won't be far from the coil unit, so starting at the dizzy, following the coil HT lead, then follow the wiring from the coil.

    Not all 505s had electronic ignition. Some early carie models had a M78 Ducelier with points.

    Bruce.

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    Fellow Frogger! Molerpa's Avatar
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    should fit. It is a square two ports head, right? (small intake manifold, like a triangle)

    if so, no problem.


    Quote Originally Posted by luthier View Post
    It is simply impractical to expect a petrol motor to get through too much water. That's why God invented diesels.

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    Member eatpeople04's Avatar
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    I thought all of the STi's had the ZDJ* motor?
    eatpeople04

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    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    US, did they have XN-powered STIs over there?
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

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  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! Doush_504's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpieper View Post
    If so, where is the control module located on the 505? thanks

    russ
    The blue thing is what you should be looking for, it will be located inside the black box that the arrow is pointing at.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 504/505 electronic ignition-img_4189.jpg  
    Chadi

    1982 504 SR white manual sedan with A/C (257 000 Km)
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    2005 406 2.0L automatic (Replaced with a 2013 C5)
    1983 505 GR white manual sedan with A/C (170000 Km)

    All since new


  7. #7
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    From what I've read if its an '85 505 STI here in the states it should have a ZDJ motor although if its a non-STI 505 it could have an XN6. I think the owner may be a bit confused here and maybe i should get some clarification. Would it make a difference if it was the electronic ignition was from ZDJ vs an XN6? The owner suggests that the coil is in fact on the right strut tower.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpieper View Post
    From what I've read if its an '85 505 STI here in the states it should have a ZDJ motor although if its a non-STI 505 it could have an XN6. I think the owner may be a bit confused here and maybe i should get some clarification. Would it make a difference if it was the electronic ignition was from ZDJ vs an XN6? The owner suggests that the coil is in fact on the right strut tower.
    They did have XN6 STis in the US.
    Graham

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! Molerpa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpieper View Post
    From what I've read if its an '85 505 STI here in the states it should have a ZDJ motor although if its a non-STI 505 it could have an XN6. I think the owner may be a bit confused here and maybe i should get some clarification. Would it make a difference if it was the electronic ignition was from ZDJ vs an XN6? The owner suggests that the coil is in fact on the right strut tower.

    good to know, right side coil and module, is the classic XN6 ignition.




    The main difference between the XN6 and ZEJ/ZDJ distributor is that...



    at 0:48 you'll see complete scene.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2YZnTL596Q


    Quote Originally Posted by luthier View Post
    It is simply impractical to expect a petrol motor to get through too much water. That's why God invented diesels.

  10. #10
    Member andrethx's Avatar
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    US 505 STIs up through 86 had the xn6....after that, they had ZDJLs. here's a link to an online resource that gives the details of the US models...

    andré
    1986 Peugeot 505 GL (xn6, 4sp auto)

  11. #11
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    OK, the engine seems to be an XN6, a photo is below. The blue wires connect the distributor to the coil and ECU on the strut tower as described so I'm good so far, but what is the electrical-looking box sitting between the distributor and the coil, the one with the orange/red wire running out of it? Do I need this?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 504/505 electronic ignition-engine-1.jpg  

  12. #12
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peujohn View Post
    US, did they have XN-powered STIs over there?
    Yes, we did. The XN6. '85-'87, I think, then we got the 2.2 in standard and turbo form. Yes, we did get the Turbos earlier than that, but not the standard 2.2, just either the 2.0, or the Diesel, in standard or Turbo. Basically, all that to say the STi was just a trim package for us.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpieper View Post
    OK, the engine seems to be an XN6, a photo is below. The blue wires connect the distributor to the coil and ECU on the strut tower as described so I'm good so far, but what is the electrical-looking box sitting between the distributor and the coil, the one with the orange/red wire running out of it? Do I need this?
    All you really need are three components:

    The distributor
    The coil
    The control module.

    In fact, looking at the condition of the engine bay, you be better to buy a new coil and control module.

    You can use any of the Bosch module designed for inductive trigger type distributors.

    You can use any coil designed for high energy ignition (HEI) systems.

    The wiring is explained in the Bosch data sheet.


    I used a Bosch BIM 024 (see the attached PDF) module. It is electrically the same as a BIM 123 which used in XN 6 uses. BIM 024 are found inside Toyota twin cam distributors.

    For a coil I used a standard Bosch transformer type coil.

    For all the mucking around you may be better to buy a 123 Ignition replacement distributor. These are a drop in replacement.
    Attached Files Attached Files
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  14. #14
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpieper View Post
    OK, the engine seems to be an XN6, a photo is below. The blue wires connect the distributor to the coil and ECU on the strut tower as described so I'm good so far, but what is the electrical-looking box sitting between the distributor and the coil, the one with the orange/red wire running out of it? Do I need this?
    I was going to ask you if that was a US market 505, because there are a lot of US-specific parts under there. Then I looked at your location- DUH!!

    That rectangular box is, IIRC, just a set of solenoids for the emissions crap. You shouldn't need that, even in the Peoples Democratic Republic of Kalifornia. Just as an aside, I do have a distributor for a 505 in my pile o' parts. I think I have some other stuff, too. The parts are just getting lost in my ever-increasing pile of Citroen DS electrical parts, so it can be yours just for the postage. Priority Mail by the USPS is incredibly cheap. PM me if you want the stuff.

    Is this a Pick-Your-Part car? Steal the alternator too, if you can, and it still spins freely.


    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  15. #15
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    All you really need are three components:

    The distributor
    The coil
    The control module.

    In fact, looking at the condition of the engine bay, you be better to buy a new coil and control module.

    You can use any of the Bosch module designed for inductive trigger type distributors.

    You can use any coil designed for high energy ignition (HEI) systems.

    The wiring is explained in the Bosch data sheet.


    I used a Bosch BIM 024 (see the attached PDF) module. It is electrically the same as a BIM 123 which used in XN 6 uses. BIM 024 are found inside Toyota twin cam distributors.

    For a coil I used a standard Bosch transformer type coil.

    For all the mucking around you may be better to buy a 123 Ignition replacement distributor. These are a drop in replacement.
    Actually, the coil and module is even easier than that- they're both GM pieces, dead-nuts easy to obtain.

    The 123 Ignition parts have improved immensely over the last few years.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    Actually, the coil and module is even easier than that- they're both GM pieces, dead-nuts easy to obtain.

    The 123 Ignition parts have improved immensely over the last few years.

    Thanks, your advice is more area specific

    The XN6 distributors are a POS. I can almost guarantee the advance diaphragm is shagged.
    That's what I suggested an alternative.
    Mutual Respect is Contagious


  17. #17
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    Thanks again, solid advice all the way around as usual. Given the price of a new 123 Ignition distributor ($400) I think I'll have to go the used route with Robmac's warning in mind. I'll let you know how it turns out.

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! Molerpa's Avatar
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    (sorry for the idiot question... ¿What is a 123 Ignition Distributor?)

    Beside this...

    don't focus on those wires... are not connected into nothing related to ignition. Should be the econnoscope or something of the electrofan.

    The module is built in the same support of the coil...

    see? This is XN6 ignition that we installed in Shadowpucci's 404.

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowpucci View Post

    505 SRInjection electronic distributor, ducellier, french.





    Dry coil


    Electronic ignition module


    Quote Originally Posted by luthier View Post
    It is simply impractical to expect a petrol motor to get through too much water. That's why God invented diesels.

  19. #19
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    123 Ignition is the brand, they make aftermarket (pricey) distributors for classic vehicles, had to check it out myself. Thanks for the photos, I'm gonna get this job done

  20. #20
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    A wiring issue (I think) - I did manage to get a 505 distributor for my 74 504 GL along with a 4 pin GM 990 electronic control module from a fellow frogger (big thanks) but after installation i seem to be getting no spark. The details are as follows: (picture attached)

    Positive pole of battery linked through ignition to the pos terminal of the coil (Bosch blue 12V, <1 year old and working fine).

    Positive pole of coil also linked (via the red wire in the foreground of the photo) to the "B" terminal of a 4 pin GM Delco 990 electronic control unit (has a piece of blue tape on it in the photo). Neg pole of coil (the one you can see in the photo) linked to the "C" terminal of the ECU and also to the ground screw on the distributor. The W and G pins on the other end of the ECM are linked to the distributor by a wiring harness (red and green wires in the photo) that came with the distributor. Then of course coil to distributor and distributor out to the 4 plugs. Car turns over, no spark at plugs, wont start. With the ignition on there is juice going to the distributor but nothing coming out of it. The way i see it, I either have it wired wrong or the ECM or distributor are no good. What am I missing here?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 504/505 electronic ignition-photo0517.jpg  

  21. #21
    cjl
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    The negative coil terminal of the coil should not be connected to ground. Not sure about the other wiring but that is certainly wrong.

    Good luck with it.

    Chris.
    1975 504
    1985 505 STI with V6
    1992 505 wagon

  22. #22
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    Thanks Chris, you were right on it! Pulled the offending wire off and got spark immediately. Set the timing properly and my my car is running great. Compared the old non-electronic ignition, the car now starts much more easily and runs better as well. Wouldnt say it has more power but the electronic ignition is definitely a step up... Thanks again

  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger! FedGrapes's Avatar
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    Glad you got it working Russ!

    I have a 123 electronic distributor coming in the mail, I'll probably refer back here for issues that pop up!

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    This is something you will never regret doing, rpeiper. I had a few points-ignition 504s and a similar early 505, and when I put electronic ignition on it, I never had another tuning problem. I checked the timing a year later, adjusted it slightly (due to wear) and then didn't check for 3 years. Perfect starting every time.
    The spark is stronger so it will spark across faulty spark plug insulators more easily. I had to replace mine straight away. And you DEFINITELY don't want to get your hand zapped with that spark ! It's much stronger than before.

  25. #25
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    Well, it was a short-lived victory. My electronic ignition was working fine around town but on the highway i noticed i was losing power going up hills. Car was OK by the time I got to san francisco 30 miles later but going through the city it started to sputter and stall, eventually just barely making it under its own power to my parking lot. After waiting a day the car would barely start and stay running. Timing check revealed the timing to be WAY off although nothing else had changed. Put the old mechanical dizzy back on , retimed, good as new. The only thing maybe worth mentioning is that i had not connected the vacuum advance to the manifold on the electric system, not sure if this was an issue but to me it looks like distributor failure. So two follow-up questions: 1. most everything i've read says its not worth trying to rebuild the dizzy, true? and 2. on a whim i went ahead and bought another used very cheap ($10) Ducellier electronic distributor on ebay (525213A M118E). The number indicates its from a 1987 505 and the while dimensions are all good, its pretty clear that a round cap will not cover the whole top of this unit (first photo below). It looks surprisingly like the unit in shadowpucci's photos a few posts back except perhaps missing a metal plate over the entire top? That seems more likely than the unit needing a custom non-round cap or being open to the air with a round cap. The second photo is the stuffed dizzy that uses a typical round cap. Any help on either of these two issues would be appreciated.

    PS -putting in the weber carb tomorrow, very excited, will post the results
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 504/505 electronic ignition-photo0520.jpg   504/505 electronic ignition-photo0521.jpg  

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