505 GTi 5 speed manual gearbox
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Thread: 505 GTi 5 speed manual gearbox

  1. #1
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    Default 505 GTi 5 speed manual gearbox

    I am a new member, but have owned Pugs (505, MI16, 405 SRDT) for over ten years and love the darn things...especially the 505.

    I have the following serious probs with the BA7 5 speed box in my '87 505 GTi Wagon:

    1/. Very noisy whining, almost grinding sound in 2nd and 3rd when under load (has been like this for a while).
    2/. Lost synchro for 3rd; this only just happened.

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    My guess is the noise is due to worn gears (I don't think it's bearing noise) and the synchro rings have worn out for 3rd. The two issues are probably related. I would like to get the gearbox repaired or replaced, but that is proving to be quite a challenge. Is anyone out there with a BA7/5 for sale or knows of someone that repairs older Pug gearboxes in the Brisbane, Gold Coast sort of area? I haven't yet removed the box, but plan to get to that shortly.

    Thanx in advance to any replies

    Simon W

  2. #2
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    The 505 BA 7/5 gearbox isn't really strong enough for the 505 wagon. Your problem is very common, depending on how a gear box is treated throughout its life. Perhaps this is why the manual GTI wagon was only sold for a year or so in Australia. Yes to my knowledge these problems rarely affect sedans.

    A friend of mine had his reconditioned at considerable cost - remetalling and new bearings, when he could have had a gearbox out of a manual car (STI or GTI) installed at a great deal less cost (apparently the mechanic hadn't thought about this). Naturally this friend was rather annoyed when he found out.

    Good luck with finding another box - just make sure it's a good one as there is a lot of work changing it over.
    Last edited by pugnut1; 2nd February 2012 at 01:19 PM. Reason: Wrong info re extension housing
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  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! stew's Avatar
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    The BA 7/5 gear box's leak oil, just like any peugeot gear box. The level gets low, the drop gears, input shaft and lay shaft, get very hot and the hardening on them turns blue. They don't mesh properly ever again and thus the whine in all gears apart from 4th which is direct. This is still a common occurence where vehicle oil levels aren't checked at service. Wagons or sedans, same problem. Syncro assemblies break a wire ring and break gear teeth too. That also means that syncro crashes into gear, too. Some cars have dragging clutches due to pedal to pushrod wear as well which loads the syncro spring which winds up and hits the selector fork. Bang goes the spring then too!
    Best to find another box and fix it up, I'm afraid. Maybe fix the oil leaks, which were a "Peugeot Feature" of this box, too.
    I think I have a 7/5 which could help.

  4. #4
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    Icon5 Extension housing

    Quote Originally Posted by pugnut1 View Post
    The 505 BA 7/5 gearbox isn't really strong enough for the 505 wagon. Your problem is very common, depending on how a gear box is treated throughout its life. Perhaps this is why the manual GTI wagon was only sold for a year or so in Australia. Yes to my knowledge these problems rarely affect sedans.

    A friend of mine had his reconditioned at considerable cost - remetalling and new bearings, when he could have had a gearbox out of a manual car (STI or GTI) installed at a great deal less cost (apparently the mechanic hadn't thought about this). Naturally this friend was rather annoyed when he found out. The only change is to swap the extension housing.

    Good luck with finding another box - just make sure it's a good one as there is a lot of work changing it over.
    Thanks for your thoughts Gerry; by extension housing, do you mean the same as what some might call the bell housing? I am hopeful of finding another box to use and wondered if there is any difference between the sedan and the wagon; if I understand you correctly, the sedan box just needs the extension housing to be swapped over.

    Cheers,
    Simon

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    There are no differences in bell housings or extension housings between sedan and wagon 505 GTi BA7/5s. The only thing you will want to swap is the speedo gear, to keep the speedo accurate (wagons had a 4.22:1 diff ratio, sedans had 4.11:1).

    It is simply held in by a 6 or 7mm bolt with an 11mm locknut.

    Oh - there is one other difference. Late model BA7/5s had a reinforcing brace from the front of the bell housing to the gearbox, which earlier ones did not have. Personally, I leave it off, because it makes it a right pain in the neck to remove the engine and gearbox together with the brace installed. It's certainly not 'must-have' equipment.

    Also, be aware that virtually every BA7/5 is now well due to have the 5th gear rear bearing replaced. Unless you have documentation with a replacement gearbox to prove that it has been done VERY recently, replace this bearing. When (not if) it fails, it will destroy the entire gearbox in the process.
    Scotty

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    I have 2 BA7/5's. One was supposed to have been "done up" when I got it, but it would have to be stripped to get it right.

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    Default BA10 5 speed gearbox

    I have a BA-10 that you are welcome to; it was a great quiet box in the car; when I got rid of all my 505 accumulated 'spares' it was one piece of the collection too good to go to scrap. I also have a bonnet, and some re'conned brake master cylinders - please let me know if you are interested (no cost - my bonus is more room in the shed!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W View Post
    by extension housing, do you mean the same as what some might call the bell housing?
    the bell housing attaches the front of the gearbox to the engine with the clutch/flywheel inside
    the extension housing attaches the back of the gearbox to the torque tube (prop shaft inside)

    you have to change the extension housing if the gearbox is from a saloon because the saloon has a solid torque tube whilst the estate has a joint to allow the back axle to move up and down.

    It's very easy to swap over so no big deal provided you don't dump the old gearbox before realising

    at least I think that's what people mean

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    Quote Originally Posted by SheldonPuggers View Post
    I have a BA-10 that you are welcome to; it was a great quiet box in the car; when I got rid of all my 505 accumulated 'spares' it was one piece of the collection too good to go to scrap. I also have a bonnet, and some re'conned brake master cylinders - please let me know if you are interested (no cost - my bonus is more room in the shed!)
    BA10 won't fit a wagon, also it would have the wrong bell housing and input shaft for a GTi engine, these were fitted to XN engines.
    Graham

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    Hi SheldonPuggers......I just sent you an email about that BA10 gearbox. I need one and I live near you. A bonnet would also come in handy.....
    Last edited by Beano; 31st January 2012 at 08:10 PM.

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    I am a bit confused by the differing opinions on this thread and the differing opinions come from very learned gentlemen.

    I put a sedan 5 speed gearbox 7/5 straight into a wagon replacing the original 4 speed box.
    I have never seen the extension housing of a 7/5 wagon box to compare to my sedan box.

    Have I done something wrong ??

    Out of interest and almost nothing to do with this thread...the 1980 wagon box was identical externally to a 1980 sedan box.

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Some of the apparent confusion arises because there are various types of engine in 505s.
    A BA10 gearbox from a 505 Series 1 sedan will not fit a 505 Series 2 sedan.
    And a gearbox from a Series 1 carburettored car will not fit in a Series 1 GTI.
    Last edited by Beano; 31st January 2012 at 08:33 PM.

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    Oh! Yawwwwnn!
    Do you want a gearbox or not Simon?

  14. #14
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    Default Yes

    G'day Stew,
    Sent you a PM too;the short answer is yes! I need it for a GTI wagon series 2 ('87). I don't think there's any problem in swapping over the bell housing and/or the speedo drive unit though if you have a GTI sedan's box.

    Thanx for your reply...much appreciated

    Cheers,
    Simon W

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    Default GTD Wagon

    G'day Scotty,
    Thanx for your info re the BA7/5 differences. I have seen the "braced" box and really can't see the need for it. Mine doesn't have it and has never shown any sign of a problem through lack of it. It does have me intrigued though; I'm sure it was considered necessary by someone! Perhaps the later boxes had some slight difference in the bell housing which required the thing be braced...I don't know.
    Bottom line is that I have the Series 2 GTI wagon box which I can use to change over parts if needed. From what I can gather, I need to get Series 2 GTI gearbox (sedan or wagon), but the Series 1 GTI is different ( I have my doubts about this).
    Intrigued by your list of Pugs, especially the 505 GTD Wagon (what a car!)...are you considering selling it?

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    I don't know for sure where this apparently quite common misconception about series 1 and series 2 GTi boxes came from, but let's clear the air, and you can consider this gospel:

    • All Australian-delivered manual 505 GTi and STi came equipped with BA7/5 speed gearboxes.


    • There are no differences between series 1 and series 2 GTi/STi BA7/5s that prevent them from being a 100% form and functional fit. I believe the 'brace' on later gearboxes was added to conform to crash standards, but does not affect the interchangeability of the boxes.


    • There are no differences between sedan and wagon GTi/STi BA7/5s that prevent them from being a 100% form and functional fit. The only difference is the speedo drive gear due to the different diff ratios, easily swapped in seconds as they are only held in by one small bolt. Bell housings and extension housings are 100% interchangeable, and do not need to be swapped to suit a change in vehicle body style.

    Some extra information that might help explain where these strange ideas came from:

    • BA7/4 speed gearboxes had a difference between early 504 wagons and 504 sedans, due to the different gear selector arrangement. This can be overcome by swapping the extension housings. Late model 504 wagon and all 504 sedan gearboxes can be retrofitted to 505 wagons with the XN engine ONLY, not GTi/STi engines.


    • BA10/5 gearboxes in 505s were NEVER AVAILABLE in ANY Australian delivered GTi or STi. They were only fitted to XN carburettor engined cars (early GRs) and turbo diesels. They cannot be fitted to any wagons without heavy customising of the rear gearbox mount assembly.


    • BA7/5 gearboxes were also fitted to late model GRs and SRs, as well as the series 2 SLi, however these gearboxes have a different input shaft and bell housing to the ZDJ (GTi/STi) gearboxes. They can be fitted to wagons (as can all BA7 gearboxes), but not behind a GTi/STi engine.

    I hope this helps.

    Basically, you can use any 505 GTi or STi gearbox to replace the dying one in your wagon, without having to swap major components on it, aside from the speedo gear if it doesn't match the diff in the car.
    Scotty

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  17. #17
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    Default That clears it up!

    Thanx again Scotty,
    That's great info and it 's good news...it broadens the possibilities. Basically, any BA7/5 from an Australian GTi or STi, regardless of series, will do the trick. You're right about the conflicting info about this. I spoke to an experienced Pug mechanic who said that the BA7/5 gearbox that came attached to the 2.0L carbied engine had a different tailshaft spline and, I'm pretty sure he said also that the input shaft also differed to the GTi/STi version. Maybe that's how the confusion/misinformation about extension housing differences has come about.
    If you decide to sell your GTD wagon, I'm sure you'll have a lot interested; count me as one of them!

    Cheers,

    Simon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W View Post
    Thanx again Scotty,
    That's great info and it 's good news...it broadens the possibilities. Basically, any BA7/5 from an Australian GTi or STi, regardless of series, will do the trick. You're right about the conflicting info about this. I spoke to an experienced Pug mechanic who said that the BA7/5 gearbox that came attached to the 2.0L carbied engine had a different tailshaft spline and, I'm pretty sure he said also that the input shaft also differed to the GTi/STi version. Maybe that's how the confusion/misinformation about extension housing differences has come about.
    If you decide to sell your GTD wagon, I'm sure you'll have a lot interested; count me as one of them!

    Cheers,

    Simon
    Tailshaft splines are all the same, bell housing and input shaft are different even though the splines are the same, the XN and Douvrin engines use the same clutch plate!
    Graham

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    Default Clear as mud!

    Thanks Graham
    ...bottom line's still the same; only a GTi or STi box will do.
    Any news re your 505 project?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W View Post
    Thanks Graham
    ...bottom line's still the same; only a GTi or STi box will do.
    Any news re your 505 project?
    I haven't heard from the guy so looks like I'm keeping it.
    Graham

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    Default Gearboxes

    Great info in this thread.

    OK, so what if I had a 4 speed auto GTI wagon and wanted to convert it to a manual one (just wondering about this that's all). I gather that a complete BA7/5 gearbox, torque tube and diff from a manual ZDJL engined wagon wreck is required as the manual gearbox won't simply bolt in the auto's place?

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    Hi James,
    I'm sure you'll get the definitive answers to your ???, but from what I understand, the auto's diff ratio is different to the manual's...not sure re the torque tube, but I think it's the same. The bigger question is, why do it? Iv'e even had some suggestions to convert my manual to auto (not going to, but I understand the point). The BA7/5 is nice, but some have said it is a bit light for the wagon; I don't know if that's necessarily true, but getting parts is getting difficult whereas the auto boxes are still plentiful and not expensive... not to mention the fact that, from all accounts, the GTi auto wagon's a beautiful thing!
    Cheers
    Simon

  23. #23
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Yes, it can be done, but it will be far easier to sell the car and buy a manual one.

    C1, C2, C3, BA7/5, BA7/4, BA10/4, BA10/5, BW35 and ZF 3HP22 are all exactly the same length, or at least they come with bellhousings which mean the distance between the engine mount points on the crossmember and the back of the gearbox are always the same distance.

    Furthermore, on the wagons, all of the above gearboxes use virtually the same rear mount.

    ZF 4HP22 is the stick in the mud. It is longer than any of the other gearboxes, and as such requires a shorter torque tube and propshaft on both the sedans and the wagons.

    But on the wagon, it goes one further. The mounting system is completely different to any other sedan or wagon. So much so, that the floorpan is completely different. It is an arrangement of multiple mounts, struts and mounting points.

    I have looked at retrofitting other gearboxes into 4-speed auto wagons, but the simplest way is actually to cut out a large section of the floorpan and weld in the matching section from a car that has the right mounting assembly.

    Hence my initial suggestion, sell it and buy a 5 speed wagon!
    Scotty

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    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

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    An early long shaft BA7 or BA10 ( from GR and SLi with XN motors) can be used in later STi & GTi ( Duvion motor ) if the input shaft is cut down to the length of the later type box. You need to remove 17mm from memorey

    A long shaft box can be fitted to an XN block by use of a special spigiot bearing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rally View Post
    An early long shaft BA7 or BA10 ( from GR and SLi with XN motors) can be used in later STi & GTi ( Duvion motor ) if the input shaft is cut down to the length of the later type box. You need to remove 17mm from memorey

    A long shaft box can be fitted to an XN block by use of a special spigiot bearing.
    Yes, to use an XN BA10 on a ZDJ/ZEJ motor, you need to cut 12mm from the end of the input shaft and replace the spigot bearing with one with a 16mm centre diameter instead of the 17mm one, or sleeve it down (though a .5mm thick sleeve would be both difficult to make and fragile).

    Plus of course, you need to find the correct bell housing. All imported BA10 bellhousings to suit ZDJ/ZEK engines (in fact they were only actually fitted to ZEK engines) had a cable operated clutch, so this would need to be modified anyway to suit the hydraulic clutch.

    It would be very unusual to want to use a ZEJ/ZDJ gearbox on an XN engine, given the ready availability of the correct gearboxes here in Australia, but to do it would require a custom spigot bearing to suit the shorter input shaft and wider spigot.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

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