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  1. #1
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Default VNT / VTG Turbos

    Variable Turbine Geometry turbos... has anyone ever retrofitted one to an older diesel car?

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    In my neverending quest for more low-down torque in the wagon, I've just bought a pair of these. Can anyone think of any good reasons for it not to work?
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    Variable Turbine Geometry turbos... has anyone ever retrofitted one to an older diesel car?

    In my neverending quest for more low-down torque in the wagon, I've just bought a pair of these. Can anyone think of any good reasons for it not to work?
    How is the actuator controlled?

    I was under the impression that it is controlled by an electronic controller so that the vanes open and close dependant on load and engine speed or can you just connect a boost signal to it?

    If it has a controller, can the controller be retrofitted or do you just intend to run a rpm dependant solenoid valve to switch the actuator from the two positions at 1500rpm or similar?




  3. #3
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    The good news is that they have boost operated vane actuators on them.

    I was thinking that I would just connect them to a boost pressure source and let them do their thing most of the time (the specs I can find on them suggest that they're set to 18psi as standard).

    I was also thinking I could put an additional vacuum operated actuator to override the boost actuator on cruise conditions to open the vanes right up, to minimise pumping losses on the highway.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    The good news is that they have boost operated vane actuators on them.

    I was thinking that I would just connect them to a boost pressure source and let them do their thing most of the time (the specs I can find on them suggest that they're set to 18psi as standard).

    I was also thinking I could put an additional vacuum operated actuator to override the boost actuator on cruise conditions to open the vanes right up, to minimise pumping losses on the highway.
    It's my understanding that the diesel ones typically have vacuum operated vanes. You'll definitely need some sort of electronic wastegate control as with vanes closed these VNTs can provide enough back pressure to severely choke an engine.

    I have heard of someone cobbling together 2 mechanical waste gates to provide an approximation of electronic control but it's an approximation at best. The ideal control strategy is to provide enough boost to meet demand whilst not exceeding too much back pressure and a mechanical control won't do this very well.

    I've had a GT1749V in my possession for about 2 years now and my buggered gearbox is providing a strong incentive to get it installed now that I'll have to take the engine out to get the new gearbox in.

    I'm planning on implementing an open loop for the pulse width modulated signal for the electronic boost valve mapped against engine revs and throttle position with an arduino micro-controller. This will obviously take a lot of fine tuning on the road to work out a map for boost pressure.

    Ideally I would be to fit a wideband oxy sensor and a back-pressure sensor and set upper limits for richness and back-pressure but this would be more complicated to program. It would compensate for transients and allow behaviour like a momentary spike in back-pressure to get the turbo spinning though.

    This is the boost control valve I was planning on:
    http://macvalves.com/valves/3-way-valves/35l-series/

    Which turbos did you get?
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    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Upon closer inspection of the turbos I have here, the actuators for the vane controls are in fact vacuum modules, not boost actuated. This is good, because it gives me more control! They also have stop screws to limit the motion of the actuator arms.

    The turbos are TD04L4-13TBS-VG from Volkswagen Crafters with the 2.5 litre 5 cylinder 120kW engine, so it should provide plenty of airflow for my little XD2S motor.

    With all due respect to the engineering consideration that has obviously gone into your plan Toby, I think it's a little overthought for my liking. I really don't think that level of control is needed on a diesel, the occasional boost spike is harmless.

    For a start, I will manage backpressure by adjusting the stops on the actuator arm.

    To control the boost level, I will use a simple circuit consisting of a 5v power supply, two comparators and two small solenoid valves. One side of each of the valves will be connected to the vacuum actuator. For each of the other sides of the solenoids, one will go to a vacuum source and one will just be open to the atmosphere.

    A 2.5 bar MAP sensor will be used to provide a voltage (between 0 and 5v) dependent on current boost level. This will give me a useful control range of 0-21psi of boost.

    A potentiometer will provide a reference signal between 0 and 5 volts.

    Each comparator will trigger a solenoid to open if the voltage difference between the MAP signal and reference voltage becomes higher than a preset limit.

    Having that tolerance will minimise the duty cycle on the solenoid valves when boost levels and load remain relatively steady.

    I can also override it simply by applying 12v to one of the solenoids to either open fully or close fully the vanes, to either reduce boost levels and therefore pumping losses at cruise, or use exhaust braking by increasing backpressure.

    The comparators can be as simple as a mosfet with a zener diode and a resistor network (possibly with a trimpot to make the trigger level adjustable) to bias the gate.

    Am I making sense to anyone outside of my convoluted mind?
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    Upon closer inspection of the turbos I have here, the actuators for the vane controls are in fact vacuum modules, not boost actuated. This is good, because it gives me more control! They also have stop screws to limit the motion of the actuator arms.

    The turbos are TD04L4-13TBS-VG from Volkswagen Crafters with the 2.5 litre 5 cylinder 120kW engine, so it should provide plenty of airflow for my little XD2S motor.

    With all due respect to the engineering consideration that has obviously gone into your plan Toby, I think it's a little overthought for my liking. I really don't think that level of control is needed on a diesel, the occasional boost spike is harmless.

    For a start, I will manage backpressure by adjusting the stops on the actuator arm.

    To control the boost level, I will use a simple circuit consisting of a 5v power supply, two comparators and two small solenoid valves. One side of each of the valves will be connected to the vacuum actuator. For each of the other sides of the solenoids, one will go to a vacuum source and one will just be open to the atmosphere.

    A 2.5 bar MAP sensor will be used to provide a voltage (between 0 and 5v) dependent on current boost level. This will give me a useful control range of 0-21psi of boost.

    A potentiometer will provide a reference signal between 0 and 5 volts.

    Each comparator will trigger a solenoid to open if the voltage difference between the MAP signal and reference voltage becomes higher than a preset limit.

    Having that tolerance will minimise the duty cycle on the solenoid valves when boost levels and load remain relatively steady.

    I can also override it simply by applying 12v to one of the solenoids to either open fully or close fully the vanes, to either reduce boost levels and therefore pumping losses at cruise, or use exhaust braking by increasing backpressure.

    The comparators can be as simple as a mosfet with a zener diode and a resistor network (possibly with a trimpot to make the trigger level adjustable) to bias the gate.

    Am I making sense to anyone outside of my convoluted mind?
    I understand your logic flow chart.

    However, instead of cobbling chips and zeners on lumps of veroboard or etching pcb I would suggest you have a look at Arduino.

    These are a micro processor et al designed for low volume projects such as your.

    They are programmable via a PC and USB and the entire development kit is under $100.

    I've done a few basic tasks with Arduino and would never make pcbs or cobble up veroboard projects again.

    http://www.oceancontrols.com.au/Arduino.html
    http://www.arduino.cc/

    Blank "shields", essentially the board which the arduino processor plugs into are available which allow rapid prototypes.
    Last edited by robmac; 27th January 2012 at 05:48 PM. Reason: spelling fix

  7. #7
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    I'm with Rob, you could go down the route of discretes and if that's what you're comfortable with then by all means, there's more than one way to skin a cat. I reckon you could get the component count lower with the Arduino.

    Out of the box the Arduino has PWM outputs and ADC inputs and will interface directly to a pressure sensor, which is something I've already done. The piggyback shields are like iPhone apps, if there's something electronic you want to do, there's a shield for that.

    It interfaces via USB with a laptop and already has a boot loader installed. All you need to do is buy an Arduino, a breadboard shield and you're up and running with a prototyping environment.

    I've bought from Ocean Controls (just bought a pre-assembled function generator last week) but little bird electronics is also a good source of Arduino stuff, along with general electronics as well.
    Last edited by Uffee; 28th January 2012 at 04:27 PM.
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    One thing to watch out for is that the exhaust side of VNTs can be tricky to clock. Some can be clocked the angle between adjacent vanes, some can only be clocked in 120 degree in increments and some can't be clocked at all.

    The vacuum actuator may also be in an inconvenient location. Mine wants to sit where the engine block is.
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    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    I have had a quick look at this Arduino system, I will look into it further, but I am 100% confident in my own abilities with a plain analogue system. My biggest concern is the expense of high-reliability solenoids for use with a PWM system - I believe my system will require substantially less cycling of the solenoids and thus much longer life.

    I have pulled the back off one of these turbos to work out how it's all going to work. You're right, Toby, there are 3 possible clocking positions, 120 degrees apart. And one of them is perfect for my application - turbine flange is pointing straight up, oil feed is straight up, oil drain is straight down and the actuator arm is vertical with the actuator at the lowest point (behind the compressor outlet). Couldn't have asked for a better arrangement, that's why I selected these turbos.

    Just need to work out the best way in my situation to adapt the T2 flange on the turbo to the T3 flange on the manifold...
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    I have had a quick look at this Arduino system, I will look into it further, but I am 100% confident in my own abilities with a plain analogue system. My biggest concern is the expense of high-reliability solenoids for use with a PWM system - I believe my system will require substantially less cycling of the solenoids and thus much longer life.
    Go with what you know, it's usually the way to get up and running the quickest.

    The solenoid I've posted a link to is designed for constant duty PWM and I think comes in around $80.

    I have pulled the back off one of these turbos to work out how it's all going to work. You're right, Toby, there are 3 possible clocking positions, 120 degrees apart. And one of them is perfect for my application - turbine flange is pointing straight up, oil feed is straight up, oil drain is straight down and the actuator arm is vertical with the actuator at the lowest point (behind the compressor outlet). Couldn't have asked for a better arrangement, that's why I selected these turbos.
    Nice result, mine can be clocked the angle between adjacent vanes but I'll have to adjust the position of the actuator with a new bracket.

    Just need to work out the best way in my situation to adapt the T2 flange on the turbo to the T3 flange on the manifold...
    You may be able to buy off the shelf adaptors for this. From memory, the Skyrine crowd use them when they want to upgrade their turbos.

    I've got the funny 3 bolt with circle manifold on my turbo which will be interesting, I can't decide whether I'll make up a whole new manifold or just an adaptor yet.
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    Sounds like a lot of work to set up correctly.
    Would finished project have much advantage over twin turbos (one small one large)?

    Paul

    "A straight is merely the distance between two corners."

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    Quote Originally Posted by 504-504-504 View Post
    Sounds like a lot of work to set up correctly.
    Would finished project have much advantage over twin turbos (one small one large)?

    Paul

    "A straight is merely the distance between two corners."
    I reckon setting up a twin turbo would be a lot more complicated, you'd have to get 2 turbos that work well together, it's somewhat tricky getting even one turbo second hand that will suit a motor. Then you've to to do the pipework which would be a world of hurt I imagine, particularly for an XD2S where the turbo has to compete with the steering column, vacuum pump and brake booster for space, not to mention power steering and air conditioning when fitted.
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    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Yes, there is VERY restricted space down there. Like Toby said, I have brake booster, power steering rack, engine mounts, vacuum pump, power steering pump, air conditioner compressor and intercooler pipework down that side of the engine already, and the engine leans over 12.5 degrees to that side of the engine bay as well!

    It's challenging enough to fit one turbo down there, let alone two.

    Besides, the whole idea of the VNT turbo is to behave like two (or more!) turbos. By varying the vanes, you give the turbo the behavioral characteristics of a small turbo, a large turbo or any turbo in between!
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

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    One thing you may have to watch out for (depending on the size of the turbos) is compressor surge. Given that these are 'big cube' engines compared to what the the turbos are typically used with, with vanes closed and low revs you'll probably easily be able to drive the compressor into surge.

    The turbo I have will be driven into surge if I don't limit boost below around 1500 rpm according to the compressor map.
    Last edited by Uffee; 31st January 2012 at 10:17 AM.
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    what would happen if you fed nothing to the vane control, and then when a pressure switch detects the boost that you want it feeds 12V to a solenoid which then supplies vacuum? At boost it would sit there chattering away supplying the right vacuum to get the pressure switch cycling on/off

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    Fingers crossed that the fact that my engine is actually 200cc smaller than the engine it was originally fitted to should keep me relatively safe from compressor surge.

    In your case too, I think you'll find that a 2 litre HDi motor (which your turbo was used on) actually flows a lot more air than even your 2.5 litre XD3T. There were huge leaps forward in volumetric efficiency between the 1940s and the 1990s!

    DNJ, I don't see any reason why your system wouldn't work, but I would be concerned that the excess oscillation of the VNT system would cause more wear on the mechanism than I would like. One of the reasons I've gone for my system is that it allows me to set a 'window' for the turbo to operate in before the system interferes and changes the geometry of the vanes. This should prolong the life of the VNT bits in the back of the turbo. As I said before, I really don't care about the occasional boost spike, it's a diesel, it's not going to care!
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    There were huge leaps forward in volumetric efficiency between the 1940s and the 1990s!
    No doubt about it but you'd be surprised at the volumetric efficiency of these old motors around torque peak. Back calculating volumetric efficiency using this:

    http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_calc.shtml

    and mildly pessimistic values for specific fuel consumption and air fuel ratios gives around 90%.

    Certainly at peak power the volumetric efficiency has fallen off a cliff and is no competition for a modern motor at around 65%.
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    Here's a couple of pics of the manifolds I'm going to go with.

    I'm putting in a front mount intercooler with inlet and outlet on opposite sides so the easiest option would be to use a naturally aspirated inlet manifold, failing that the turbo manifold was the second choice. Both of these are problematic with regard to where the turbine inlet wants to sit so option 3, a custom inlet manifold, is the only way I can go.



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    Here's the final design for my manifold. The power steering pump is certainly in an annoying spot, I find it humorous than even the factory cast manifold has an indent to fit around it.

    I've investigated the oil inlet fitting which apparently is a 1/8-27 NPT on the old turbo, I'll have to double check this though. The GT1749V has an M10x1.0 inlet and the only way to get an adaptor cheaply is Autometer part no. AU2265 from around $20 otherwise a hose specialist will do one for around $50 - 60.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uffee View Post
    I've investigated the oil inlet fitting which apparently is a 1/8-27 NPT on the old turbo, I'll have to double check this though. The GT1749V has an M10x1.0 inlet and the only way to get an adaptor cheaply is Autometer part no. AU2265 from around $20 otherwise a hose specialist will do one for around $50 - 60.
    Well, 1/8-27 NPT certainly isn't correct. The TA0302 has a AN-6 (9/16-18) inverted flare nut with a double flare on the 5/16" or 8mm oil tube.

    I've settled on some fittings from Proflow to do the job:
    PFE718-06, an M10 banjo with AN-6 male thread.
    PFE109-05, a female AN-6 to 5/16" tube connector
    PFE301-03, an M10 20mm Banjo bolt (may need a 25mm one)
    PFE675, an oil return flange that takes PFE817-08, an AN-8 to 1/2" hose barb.
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    My parents took my boys down to Goolwa for the weekend and the weather was good so I got my manifold welded together. I cut the straight sections as per the CAD diagram and everything fitted together superbly. There's a couple of hours of flap disc work to make the presentation acceptable but I'm really pleased with how this has worked out.

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    Subscribed...

    I've been wanting to do this very thing to my 86' TD wagon and I find this post. I'm most curious to see how you guys figure out the VNT controller issue. I've seen a DIY stand alone system that looked good using a TPS sensor and MAP sensor - but both the Arduino (haven't heard of it before) and the analogue system sound doable.

    My only question so far is to confirm the XD2S exhaust manifold has a T3 flange stock? My XD3T has the exhaust manifold integral with the turbo housing. I'll need to source an XD2S on if the VW VNT's bolt on.

    Thanks!
    Rabin

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    Found this controller that uses the Arduino http://dmn.kuulalaakeri.org/vnt-lda/

    Looks promising.

    Rabin

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    Quote Originally Posted by bean View Post
    Found this controller that uses the Arduino http://dmn.kuulalaakeri.org/vnt-lda/

    Looks promising.

    Rabin
    Gotta love Arduino and the spirit of the developer sharing the design and code.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bean View Post
    Found this controller that uses the Arduino http://dmn.kuulalaakeri.org/vnt-lda/

    Looks promising.

    Rabin
    This is my half finished effort, it's been like this for the last 6 months. It's an Arduino with a screw connector shield from Jaycar, a 5V voltage converter (the little black box) and the breadboard bit off of a breadboard shield. There's a Motorola MPX4250 pressure sensor and a Honewell GT101 hall effect sensor.

    The skeleton of the software is written to read the pressure gauge and display it using "Processing" on a laptop.

    Remaining to do:
    - Write software to read the hall effect sensor.
    - Wiring loom for a Throttle position sensor.
    - Wiring loom for in cabin USB connection (this box will go in the engine bay)

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