205 power upgrade/turbo options?
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default 205 power upgrade/turbo options?

    Hi fellas I have always admired the Peugeot road and race cars and now I own a 92 205 si hatch with a refreshed engine.
    Iím just wondering what is the most effective way to get decent power from these cars.
    I have no experience with Peugeotís nor know anybody who does, is it possible to turbo-charge the current 1.6 without too much hassle? Can the fuel systems cope with the extra strain?
    If not is there any specific performance engine that can be sourced which can be built to achieve decent results? I would be looking in the vicinity of around 240-250 crank hp for around 5-6k

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    I have heard of an engine found in mi16 405s which apparently can take abit of power can be used.
    Whatís the max reliable hp one of these engines can achieve using stock internals? Can these engines be turbocharged for that sort of power without causing drastic reliability issues?
    Any help on this issue would be great , Iím very curious as itís a fantastic little car but could use a little more power.

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! DjB8V's Avatar
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    You won't get your desired hp for your budget. A gti6 engine conversion is probably your best bet with that budget.

    Also an Si isn't the best platform for that kind of power. I don't need to say suspension work will be needed


    Chris
    Last edited by DjB8V; 24th January 2012 at 07:48 AM.


    205GTI - 8 valve, single cam coolness.



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    1000+ Posts Isis's Avatar
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    Christopher, who put together 'single cam' and 'coolness' in the same sentence'?

    Si man, you likely have a great little car which you could squeeze extra power from but if you are talking that kind of power upgrade, you need to really start with a GTI as suggested above and expect the need to upgrade the suspension, brakes, cage, seats, seat mounts etc etc to match the power. A 205 with even 180hp is a VERY fast tin can.

    Concerning money, it cost about $15K just to get my Mi16 engine internals sorted for turbo charging.

    I would either do a few basic cheap things to your Si and enjoy is as a run-around or start from scratch with an early GTI and an engine conversion, with a budget of $10K+

    Also be aware that the SA laws are tough on converted old cars that are modified generally. You may not get it registered at all.

    Cheers
    Ash
    S3 205 GTI x 4 and getting lower
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    Fellow Frogger! DjB8V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    Christopher, who put together 'single cam' and 'coolness' in the same sentence'? :

    Cheers
    Ash
    Bah.... you and your tricked up twin cam 16 valve turbo thingo. No appreciation for NA fun

    If you've had little to no experience with these cars, 200+ hp is pretty lethal in a 205. Don't get me wrong, I'm not doubting your ability but the simple truth is, you don't need that much power to have fun in them. It you are really keen, a rebuilt gti6 motor with good after market management and some equally as good cams will keep you very happy. Beyond that, the above mentioned combination with itbs and some more compression.

    That's just the engine

    I'm doing up an 8 valve at the moment, have a look at my build thread.

    Chris
    Last edited by DjB8V; 24th January 2012 at 12:48 PM.


    205GTI - 8 valve, single cam coolness.



  5. #5
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    there a alot of people in europe with single cam 205s with quite a bit of power. but they are mostly gti's . there is also quite a bit of difference between them. so if you want some power, your probably better of getting a gti as a base to start on. but if your on a buget peugeot is probably not the way to go.

    there are places in the uk that sell all perfomance parts for 205,106,306 ect... eg. pug1off eccosse peugeot ect...

    cheers
    good luck with your project.

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    Intersting post , Im in a simular position where i have a low KM 205 Si, in exellent condition and would like more power. Not to the degree that you have expressed interest. Any extra HP would be nice.

    Do the gurus know if there is a sensible way of getting the extra HP without going over the top?

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    Fellow Frogger! DjB8V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anesti View Post
    Intersting post , Im in a simular position where i have a low KM 205 Si, in exellent condition and would like more power. Not to the degree that you have expressed interest. Any extra HP would be nice.

    Do the gurus know if there is a sensible way of getting the extra HP without going over the top?
    From what I've read with Si's, webbers, cam and head from a power point of view.


    205GTI - 8 valve, single cam coolness.



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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anesti View Post
    Do the gurus know if there is a sensible way of getting the extra HP without going over the top?
    GTi manifold & cold air induction, after market ECU and maybe a cam if you don't mind doing internal mods. Then you've essentially got a 1.6L GTi.


    Remember that Parry does 1:13.1 at Wakefield with just 85kW at the wheels.

    '92 205 Mi16
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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anesti View Post
    Intersting post , Im in a simular position where i have a low KM 205 Si, in exellent condition and would like more power. Not to the degree that you have expressed interest. Any extra HP would be nice.

    Do the gurus know if there is a sensible way of getting the extra HP without going over the top?
    I think (as the non-guru I am) the most sensible thing to do is make sure you start with a well tuned car. The power increase from that alone might satisfy you and it's the cheapest thing you can do. Remember the TopGear episode with the Renault Avantime?
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    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    What do you want to do with it? Any amount of HP is possible but not for your budget. For 6k you will do a decent GTi6 conversion with about 180hp if you start with a GTi

    Cam
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
    91 205 Si
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    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/res...-race-car.html

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    by my calcualations you could have a car producing 200+hp ( 1.9 motor ) for less than 2500 pounds. with is about $4500-$5000. you dont have to spend this much if you dont want to though.

    added up all the part prices from pug1off and i spat out 1900ish pounds plus postage. you might not want to go as far a that but thats how much it would cost to do a full high comp internal overhaul. forged piston/rods new cams ect.. note this is all internal parts no gear box,air flow,ECU and FM or fuel ingetion/carbies.

    this shows what is possible, but its really more than over the top!

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    1000+ Posts parry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    GTi manifold & cold air induction, after market ECU and maybe a cam if you don't mind doing internal mods. Then you've essentially got a 1.6L GTi.


    Remember that Parry does 1:13.1 at Wakefield with just 85kW at the wheels.
    Correction 1:12:1 with 73kw!!!
    90 205 Gti Cherry Red(Track Car)
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    PBs:

    Oran Park: 1:27:9
    Wakefield: 1:05.6 (July 2015)
    Eastern Creek: 1:47 (16V) 2019
    Mt Huntley: 34.44 (2004 stock 205)
    Ringwood: 35.06 (30/10/2005)
    Winton: 1:33.6 (2017)

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    Quote Originally Posted by anesti View Post
    Intersting post , Im in a simular position where i have a low KM 205 Si, in exellent condition and would like more power. Not to the degree that you have expressed interest. Any extra HP would be nice.

    Do the gurus know if there is a sensible way of getting the extra HP without going over the top?
    Hey, we are really just talking about more power for an Si, everything else is pie in the sky unless you have some dollars and know how. Simply get a DKZ from a late 405 series 1 (the one that looks like a 205 GTi engine) and bolt it in.
    Use the 405 engine management, leave the Si management in place and disconnect cables as required, if you pull out the Si management you also lose a lot of basic electrical functions for the car.
    Graham

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Hey, we are really just talking about more power for an Si, everything else is pie in the sky unless you have some dollars and know how. Simply get a DKZ from a late 405 series 1 (the one that looks like a 205 GTi engine) and bolt it in.
    Use the 405 engine management, leave the Si management in place and disconnect cables as required, if you pull out the Si management you also lose a lot of basic electrical functions for the car.
    Graham
    Does that 405 DKZ just bolt in like that or needs some other mods? I mean body clearance/exhaust intake etc.This is what was never very clear to me.
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  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! DjB8V's Avatar
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    same motor. use 205 mounts


    205GTI - 8 valve, single cam coolness.



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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Hey, we are really just talking about more power for an Si, everything else is pie in the sky unless you have some dollars and know how. Simply get a DKZ from a late 405 series 1 (the one that looks like a 205 GTi engine) and bolt it in.
    Use the 405 engine management, leave the Si management in place and disconnect cables as required, if you pull out the Si management you also lose a lot of basic electrical functions for the car.
    Graham
    Ignition?

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    Ignition?
    Use the 405 original management, grab the coil and driver as well.
    405 engine will bolt straight in the 205, mounts are the same.
    The tricky work is to sort out the wiring with two different engine management systems, basically get rid of everything you don't want in the original and source what you do need for the Motronic system that you have taken from the 405.
    This will need some thought but probably not as much as trying to highly modify an Si engine.
    Get an engine from a do it yourself wreckers, that way you can practice as yu pull the engine out.
    Should cost about $300 all up.
    This will make the car much faster maybe all you really need or want.
    You can get plastic front end bushes from the UK for the Si/base model suspension and it would be a good idea to fit front brakes from an early 8 valve 306, these have a better master cylinder to caliper ratio and the car will stop with less effort.
    Graham

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    I couldn't see the point of ditching the Si wasted spark system for a dizzy.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  19. #19
    Tadpole
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    Thanks for the great advice, I was just looking for a cheap solution as the 205 is just my daily run around, I already have heavily modified imported car so I know the ins and outs of getting those sorts of cars legal in this state.
    I may just enjoy the 205 Si for what it is and consider finding a decent 205 gti in the future as a base.

    May I say you blokes sound like the most mature and helpful forum users I have ever seen, Iím very used to Toyota and Chrysler forums where they expect you to know everything about the car before you post a question.

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Use the 405 original management, grab the coil and driver as well.
    405 engine will bolt straight in the 205, mounts are the same.
    The tricky work is to sort out the wiring with two different engine management systems, basically get rid of everything you don't want in the original and source what you do need for the Motronic system that you have taken from the 405.
    This will need some thought but probably not as much as trying to highly modify an Si engine.
    Get an engine from a do it yourself wreckers, that way you can practice as yu pull the engine out.
    Should cost about $300 all up.
    This will make the car much faster maybe all you really need or want.
    You can get plastic front end bushes from the UK for the Si/base model suspension and it would be a good idea to fit front brakes from an early 8 valve 306, these have a better master cylinder to caliper ratio and the car will stop with less effort.
    Graham
    What about the exhaust/intake manifolds for the 405 DKZ? Do they just bolt up to the rest of the exhaust like that, and does the intake fit in the bay?
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

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  21. #21
    1000+ Posts djvu205's Avatar
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    what about running a gti inlet manifold with a 2" su or weber? then just add a ignition only ecu (maybe a megasquirt) bit of work involved to set it up but then you could run twin webers or dellortos down the track.

    if you had the know how it wouldnt cost much at all and would have to be better than the single point si system. the si already has a crank sensor and i think you can use the coil pack as well?

    i have the gti inlet to get you started . i had always planned to mod my si but put it in the too hard not enough time basket and ended up with a gti.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by DjB8V View Post
    Bah.... you and your tricked up twin cam 16 valve turbo thingo. No appreciation for NA fun

    If you've had little to no experience with these cars, 200+ hp is pretty lethal in a 205. Don't get me wrong, I'm not doubting your ability but the simple truth is, you don't need that much power to have fun in them. It you are really keen, a rebuilt gti6 motor with good after market management and some equally as good cams will keep you very happy. Beyond that, the above mentioned combination with itbs and some more compression.

    That's just the engine

    I'm doing up an 8 valve at the moment, have a look at my build thread.

    Chris
    I guess your right, i have never owned a car as small and light as this im used to massive tanks that need atleast 300hp to get moveing and cant handle a turn if there life depended on it.

    I guess when you do the math the power to wieght ratio would be fairly intense for such a small car im sure 200 hp is plenty. All my spare goes into my other car but thats almost finished anyway so i'll have some money to put into this car.

  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger! DjB8V's Avatar
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    Same deal dude. Its all the same.


    Chris


    205GTI - 8 valve, single cam coolness.



  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9Jza70ttlimited View Post
    I guess your right, i have never owned a car as small and light as this im used to massive tanks that need atleast 300hp to get moveing and cant handle a turn if there life depended on it.

    I guess when you do the math the power to wieght ratio would be fairly intense for such a small car im sure 200 hp is plenty. All my spare goes into my other car but thats almost finished anyway so i'll have some money to put into this car.
    Yeah man..... I understand.

    But the simple matter of fact is that you can get 205s really cooking with bugger all power. I've driven 205s with well under 100kW and they were very entertaining cars (I know what high HP cars are, I've owned some).

    With your budget, you could build something very cool. Its a shame that you are starting with an Si due to the fact that they are by reputation, a fantastic car in standard trim. I'd be inclined to find a cheap 205 and re'do all the mech's in it.

    But at the end of the day its your call. If you stuck with the 8 valve, you could have a lot fun with your budget, especially if you are able to do the work yourself. This forum is a huge wealth of info, there are some massively switched on people here thaat give away bulk $$$ of info for free.

    Keep us all updated on what you plan on doing.


    Chris


    205GTI - 8 valve, single cam coolness.



  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9Jza70ttlimited View Post
    is it possible to turbo-charge the current 1.6 without too much hassle?
    is it dodgy to turbo a wet liner engine? i have been told the liners can move from the pressure with obvious bad results (at least at higher psi, i guess 0.5 bar would be ok but why bother).

    if so you should rule out the 8v engines and the mi16 engine if you want to turbo, the xu10j4 306s16 or gti6 engine (iron block) would be the way to go.
    1990 205gti 8v, sv1000, zx6, sv650, zxr750, rgv250, austin 1800, fiat 124ac, fiat x1/9, 76 rd350, 124bc, lancia beta, yz125G, yz80h, yz50g, gtmx80c

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