Worm Drive diff ratios
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  1. #1
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Default Worm Drive diff ratios

    Hi everyone,

    I have some questions for the worm drive fraternity.

    Between the 203/403/404s, what diff ratios were available? In particular, what is the tallest ratio availble?

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    Are any diffs considered stronger than others? I'm confused by the coarse spline/fine spline fitments too.

    Can someone shed some light on this for me?
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    Hi everyone,

    I have some questions for the worm drive fraternity.

    Between the 203/403/404s, what diff ratios were available? In particular, what is the tallest ratio availble?

    Are any diffs considered stronger than others? I'm confused by the coarse spline/fine spline fitments too.

    Can someone shed some light on this for me?

    4.2 in b model sedans
    5.8 rings a bell for OD sedans

    fine spline is stronger than coarse spline

    i'd have to check my book to be 100% on anything else but i'm sure another head will be along shortly with more info in it
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    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Thanks Sean.

    Presumably the later models had the fine splines? Did any 403s have fine splines?

    Is the fine splines reference for both the axles and the prop shaft?

    Was there a fine spline 4.2:1 403 diff?

    Do 404 rear axle assemblies fit into 403s? Is there much of a track width difference?
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

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    1000+ Posts catshamlet's Avatar
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    From my Olyslager book thingy. Means buggerall to me, but...

    Seems my photo of the relevant page won't upload, download, whatever
    So it's here...
    203..............5.78
    203L/U6.......6.25
    203U4..........5.78
    203U8..........7.05



    Mike.
    Started out with nothing, still got most of it left.

  5. #5
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Thanks Mike. There's some great drag-racing gears there, though I imagine the top speeds wouldn't be setting any land speed records.

    What I'm after is the best combination of tall gearing and strength that I could fit into an early 403. I can envisage swapping axles, centres and propshafts to make the right combination, but the more info I can find the better!
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    Thanks Mike. There's some great drag-racing gears there, though I imagine the top speeds wouldn't be setting any land speed records.

    What I'm after is the best combination of tall gearing and strength that I could fit into an early 403. I can envisage swapping axles, centres and propshafts to make the right combination, but the more info I can find the better!
    best tall gearing that pretty much bolts straight up is the OD box and a 403B diff

    beware though, with a standard engine when you see the sign slow vehicles use left lane before a hill the car will start to die

    my old man had this setup in his and on flat ground it cruised very well, it just oculdn't climb an ant hill in top gear
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

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    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Fear not, engine won't be standard

    Do the 403B diffs have the fine splines?
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    Fear not, engine won't be standard

    Do the 403B diffs have the fine splines?
    99% sure yes
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    If you have 403b running gear you can look to early 404 for parts. I believe the diffs were the same.

    The BA7 gear box cars had entirely different splines on input shaft and wider worm wheel I think.

    GW will doubtless know.

    A man of your talent and perseverance could probably engineer a hypoid conversion. You would have lots of choice then

  10. #10
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Robmac, at the moment I don't have 403B bits, I only have 403 bits. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of worm drive bits lying around to experiment with, like I used to have 504, 505 and 604 parts.

    I considered a hypoid conversion, but the way I see it, the best way to go about it would be to modify the floorpan to make room for the torque tube, but I really don't want to lose the low floorpan of the 403. I also don't really want to do anything that I couldn't swap back to original should the moment take me.

    I'm guessing the propshaft in a 404 is probably marginally longer than a 403 one, too. BA7 style splines on the front end of the propshaft would be advantageous for me, but not critical.

    I would certainly like to know the length difference in the propshaft and the width difference in the rear axle assembly between a 403B and an early 404.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    If you have 403b running gear you can look to early 404 for parts. I believe the diffs were the same.

    The BA7 gear box cars had entirely different splines on input shaft and wider worm wheel I think.

    GW will doubtless know.

    A man of your talent and perseverance could probably engineer a hypoid conversion. You would have lots of choice then
    All worm cars had same input splines.
    There were three different 404 diffs, the first one was the same as 403 b, which also had exactly the same diff housings etc. Early 403 had different housings and bodywork.
    403s had fine spline axles from 1960, the last of the 5.76 diffs which used the 403 b diff housings.
    The diff and axles increased in size for the 1962 and on 403 and 404 wagons (4.75 ratio) and then the 404s got a hypoid diff from 1967 on in the wagons, the splines were different on the drive shaft for these.
    From 1967 on the sedans got a 4.2 version of the worm drive wagon diff.
    This is the diff you want, unbrakeable as long as you keep oil in it, not as easy as it was since the seals are NLA at present.
    The in between diff was fitted to late 65/66 models and is quite rare, it has a big wormwheel but same width as early model and small fine spline axles, same housing as later diff except for lack of strengthening ribs.
    My 203 rally car has a complete late 404 rear end with shorttened tail shaft and torque tube, although it has 203 axle tubes, RHS has slotted mounting holes to fit the diff.
    If you want to fit one of these diffs to an early 403 you may have to do the same since the early (lever arm shock) rear body construction is different to 1960 and after.
    Hypoid diff will require floor pan modifications, hits otherwise.
    Graham

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    I fitted a 504 wagon diff to a 203 with TI ratio (3.78) with a BA7/5 g/box only ever hit once from memory but the back was fairly stiff with 504 Koni 's can't recall what springs, but car is still about, nice long legged cruiser.

    Cheers
    Graham Lewis

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    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Graham, your advice is invaluable as always.

    It sounds like the post-1967 diff is the one that I want.

    So... what I'm hoping I can do is as follows:

    Late 404 worm diff, with early 403 axle housings (most likely with the holes slotted to fit the late diff as per your 203), fine splined axles to suit fitted to the early 403 housings, either from a 404 or 403B, and a shortened 404 torque tube (to get the BA7-style splines for the back of the gearbox).

    Does this sound feasable? Will 404 axles fit into early 403 axle housings?
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    Graham, your advice is invaluable as always.

    It sounds like the post-1967 diff is the one that I want.

    So... what I'm hoping I can do is as follows:

    Late 404 worm diff, with early 403 axle housings (most likely with the holes slotted to fit the late diff as per your 203), fine splined axles to suit fitted to the early 403 housings, either from a 404 or 403B, and a shortened 404 torque tube (to get the BA7-style splines for the back of the gearbox).

    Does this sound feasable? Will 404 axles fit into early 403 axle housings?
    Late 404 diff yes, this diff has the axles with the large splined shaft at the inner end so you will need these along with the diff. There are three different axles, coarse spline, fine spline and large fine spline.
    The 404 axles will fit into the early axle tubes as long as you fit the late 404 plastic oil slingers.
    Shortened torque tube AND tail shaft, when you get close to doing this I have some very useful tips as to how it should be done.
    All worm drive tail shafts have the same splines, the late 404 universal joint goes from BA7 spline to the common worm spline.
    The C1,C2,C3 universals have a different front spline but as mentioned above, the same rear spline as the BA7 unis.

    Graham

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    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Ahhh, that's even better. So is there any advantage of using a shortened 404 tailshaft and torque tube, or am I just better off using the 403 ones with the BA7 uni joint?
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    Ahhh, that's even better. So is there any advantage of using a shortened 404 tailshaft and torque tube, or am I just better off using the 403 ones with the BA7 uni joint?
    No, the bolt pattern on the front of the diff is different, so you need to change the end of the torque tube anyway. Also the 404 shaft is bigger and stronger.
    You could of course use the early 404/403b diff which would bolt straight in along with the smaller fine spline axles.
    You are using a BA7 box then?
    What engine?
    Graham

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    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Ahh, I wasn't aware of that difference, thanks. No problem in shortening a 404 torque tube, but I'm certainly happy to take on board any advice you have on the process!

    Not using a BA7, but I'm converting to automatic (ZF 3HP22) using the engine and transmission from a 505 GTi. I'm getting a bell housing made to stand the engine up straight, and will make engine mounts, a sump and oil pickup to suit. I'm going to modify a Fuego carburettor manifold to suit. Other than that, the engine will be completely standard, but it will still be capable of more power and torque than I think the early 403 diff will cope with.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    a worm drive in it's design is a very strong setup

    so long as you keep good oil in it and the right amount but don't hammer the living bejesus out of it the diff will give you good service

    compared to a hypoid the worm setup offers more surface area for drive transfer hence the strength they offer

    one of the reasons manufacturers went away from worm drives is clearance, not power transfer
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  19. #19
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Very true Sean, but it's not the actual centre I'm worried about, it's the splines to transfer the power into and out of the diff centre. If I can make it stronger than it ever needs to be, it's one less thing I have to worry about.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    Ahh, I wasn't aware of that difference, thanks. No problem in shortening a 404 torque tube, but I'm certainly happy to take on board any advice you have on the process!

    Not using a BA7, but I'm converting to automatic (ZF 3HP22) using the engine and transmission from a 505 GTi. I'm getting a bell housing made to stand the engine up straight, and will make engine mounts, a sump and oil pickup to suit. I'm going to modify a Fuego carburettor manifold to suit. Other than that, the engine will be completely standard, but it will still be capable of more power and torque than I think the early 403 diff will cope with.
    I think you will find that you need to properly dry sump the engine. Two cars were converted without doing this and were compromised, in one case quite badly.
    The only successful conversion was using the proper dry sump method.
    This gets expensive. Also these engines are very harsh when not sitting on their special hydraulic engine mounts.
    There are much more suitable engines than this, L series Datsun for example, even the Holden 6 will just about bolt straight in.
    Graham

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    i'd go all out and stick a more modern engine in it

    any 8V 205/405 engine would fit in nicely, make and adaptor to bolt the gearbox up and your set

    you may need to move the throttle body on the manifold but that in itself is a fairly easy job

    also 8V will give you plenty of access around the engine bay
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  22. #22
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    I did consider that Sean. But my arguments were:

    1. 2.2 is bigger than 1.9.
    2. There is minimal advantage in the head design between an 8 valve XU and an 8 valve ZDJ, especially after you make manifolds to suit the change in engine installation angle.
    3. There is little facility on the side of an XU block to bolt fabricated engine mounts to.
    4. ZDJ has hemispherical combustion chambers, 8 valve XU does not.
    5. I'm after torque, not revs, and at the same RPMs, the ZDJ kills the XU any day of the week.
    6. Negligible weight difference between the two.
    7. ZDJ with hydraulic lifters is quieter than an 8 valve XU.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    I did consider that Sean. But my arguments were:

    1. 2.2 is bigger than 1.9.
    2. There is minimal advantage in the head design between an 8 valve XU and an 8 valve ZDJ, especially after you make manifolds to suit the change in engine installation angle.
    3. There is little facility on the side of an XU block to bolt fabricated engine mounts to.
    4. ZDJ has hemispherical combustion chambers, 8 valve XU does not.
    5. I'm after torque, not revs, and at the same RPMs, the ZDJ kills the XU any day of the week.
    6. Negligible weight difference between the two.
    7. ZDJ with hydraulic lifters is quieter than an 8 valve XU.
    No hydraulic lifters on ZDJ engines but at least they have adjustable rockers instead of shims.
    I will be checking out 12valve Douvrins in Christchurch later this week, maybe these have hydraulic lifters.

    To repeat, you will need a few grand to fit a Douvrin properly to a 403 and an XU engine unlikely to fit easily either as the oil pump needs to be at the back of the engine.

    I would never change an engine in an 03, it is at least half of the appeal to me, and such a nice thing to rebuild.

    Graham

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    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Hydraulic rockers from a ZPJ (605/XM PRV) are a bolt in replacement. A little harder to retrofit to a bucket-and-shim head.

    Regular rebuilds aren't part of my plan for this engine, and unfortunately the current engine would need a lot of money spent on it to resurrect it.

    I've no doubt I've got a fair bit of work ahead of me, but I'm ready for the challenge, I've got nothing else to do around here at the moment so I'm a bit bored!
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Oh dear ! Demannu is at large and planning frankenstrineish things with 403s. Batten down the hatches and sound the klaxon !

    There was a guy in Brisbane a few years ago who had a 403 with a disc-brake 504 rear end. He'd also raised the distributor using an extension housing with a small universal joint inside. He utilized his machining skills in both of these alterations. The car may well still be around.
    Last edited by Beano; 23rd January 2012 at 09:58 PM.

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