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  1. #1
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    Default overheating 504

    hi,

    i went down the great ocean road last week for a few days and everything was fine getting up there, and driving around the coast, but on the way back the temperature gauge suddenly started climbing and when i stopped to check the radiator the first time, it had boiled out the top of the radiator cap and was about half empty, so i let it cool down, filled it back up and had to stop at every service station back to melbourne to let it cool because the gauge would climb again after about 15 mins driving..

    when i got back i checked the oil, which was fine, the radiator doesnt appear to have any leaks, and there wasnt any oil in the water as far as i could see..

    one thing i did notice was that there appears to be a component that looks like it could be a water pump or something similar, that should have a belt on it coming from the pulley connected to the fan, but doesnt which could explain the problem (see photo below), do you think this is the case? or is this a different part of the engine and most likely not contributing to any overheating problems. if so, any ideas as to what could be wrong?

    regardless of whether it's the root of the problem or not, i assume am going to have to replace the belt anyway, does anyone know the specs for the missing belts off the top of their head? (im guessing theres two missing..)

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    any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks again

    cheers
    gus

    **EDIT** it's a 79 GL, if that makes any difference. thanks!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails overheating 504-missing-belt.jpg  
    Last edited by guskenny83; 13th January 2012 at 02:36 PM. Reason: forgot model

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    Quote Originally Posted by guskenny83 View Post
    hi,

    i went down the great ocean road last week for a few days and everything was fine getting up there, and driving around the coast, but on the way back the temperature gauge suddenly started climbing and when i stopped to check the radiator the first time, it had boiled out the top of the radiator cap and was about half empty, so i let it cool down, filled it back up and had to stop at every service station back to melbourne to let it cool because the gauge would climb again after about 15 mins driving..

    when i got back i checked the oil, which was fine, the radiator doesnt appear to have any leaks, and there wasnt any oil in the water as far as i could see..

    one thing i did notice was that there appears to be a component that looks like it could be a water pump or something similar, that should have a belt on it coming from the pulley connected to the fan, but doesnt which could explain the problem (see photo below), do you think this is the case? or is this a different part of the engine and most likely not contributing to any overheating problems. if so, any ideas as to what could be wrong?

    regardless of whether it's the root of the problem or not, i assume am going to have to replace the belt anyway, does anyone know the specs for the missing belts off the top of their head? (im guessing theres two missing..)

    any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks again

    cheers
    gus

    **EDIT** it's a 79 GL, if that makes any difference. thanks!
    G'day mate,

    From the picture it looks as though you've got a belt that's running to the waterpump, and the fan seems to be working also - the component which has a pulley but doesn't have a belt on it is your air conditioning pump. Don't worry about putting a belt on this.

    As for what the problem is, it's possible that the engine has a small head gasket leak - my bet would be to get someone to do a pressure test on the cooling system.

    Cheers,
    Andrew

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    thanks for the quick reply, ill get someone to have a look at it..

    in regards to the air conditioning pump, does that not need a belt? cuz the air conditioning doesnt seem to be working that great, i just assumed it needed re-gassing or something..

    anyway, thanks for the response, hopefully it's nothing too serious!

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    1000+ Posts Andrew Ch's Avatar
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    It you don't have belt running to the pump the A/C isn't working at all.

    I think the comment was made in regards to some drivers who prefer not to have it hooked up at all for various reasons.

    If you are contemplating doing so you will definitely need to sort out overheating issue first as running A/C adds to engine temps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by guskenny83 View Post
    hi,

    i went down the great ocean road last week for a few days and everything was fine getting up there, and driving around the coast, but on the way back the temperature gauge suddenly started climbing and when i stopped to check the radiator the first time, it had boiled out the top of the radiator cap and was about half empty, so i let it cool down, filled it back up and had to stop at every service station back to melbourne to let it cool because the gauge would climb again after about 15 mins driving..

    when i got back i checked the oil, which was fine, the radiator doesnt appear to have any leaks, and there wasnt any oil in the water as far as i could see..

    one thing i did notice was that there appears to be a component that looks like it could be a water pump or something similar, that should have a belt on it coming from the pulley connected to the fan, but doesnt which could explain the problem (see photo below), do you think this is the case? or is this a different part of the engine and most likely not contributing to any overheating problems. if so, any ideas as to what could be wrong?

    regardless of whether it's the root of the problem or not, i assume am going to have to replace the belt anyway, does anyone know the specs for the missing belts off the top of their head? (im guessing theres two missing..)

    any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks again

    cheers
    gus

    **EDIT** it's a 79 GL, if that makes any difference. thanks!
    The plastic fan on the front of the water pump is connected by a magnetic clutch. The clutch get power from a carbon brush at the bottom water pump.

    The clutch is switched by a temperature switch switch in the bottom of the radiator.

    1) Short out the temperature switch and check the fan engages with definite "clunk". Do the check with the engine idling.

    2) If this doesn't happen, check the brush to the fan clutch and /or power to the switch.

    3) Other likely causes are blocked radiator. Is the coolant clean? The engine does have coolant and not rusty water?

    4) Is the pressure plug behind pump intact? They tend to corrode away.

    5) Next suspect is a cylinder head gasket leak.

    I would move down the list in logical order.
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    I'd also check the thermostat. Take it out and see if it opens in some boiling water on the stove.

    It will be located in either the top radiator hose near the water pump or underneath the flange where the top radiator hose connects to the water pump.

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    Check if the heater is working, if it's not, it's a reliable sign that the pump has failed, which could have been caused by the welch plug behind the pump coming loose and destroying the pump impellor.

    Graham Lewis

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    Lets set about this in a logical sequential way. It helps to check things in order, according to how commonly they occur.
    I myself would check the thermostat first (as would most mechanics).
    This is the most common cause of overheating if there is no water leak.
    Take it out and run the car for 1 or 2 kilometers, or take out thermostat and put into boiling water and look to see if it opens (it may help to have someone who has done this before). The thermostat sits inside the top radiator hose in the end which attaches to the engine. It has it's own clamp....separate from the two clamps on either end of the hose. You don't need it in the short term.....just remove the thing and remove that possibility. (And that is the MAIN possibility).

    If the thermostat works ok, or if the car still gets too hot/loses water without it, then you want to ascertain if there is a water leak by bringing the engine to operating temp whilst parked over concrete or asphalt and looking underneath when the system becomes hot and pressurized.

    No water underneath ? Let it cool and take off the radiator cap. If a fair bit of water has been lost and you can't see where it may have come out, then there is a problem with head porousity and you need to put a can of Chemiweld through the system, taking great care to follow the instructions exactly.
    However this is uncommon......I just mention it because I just encountered it again recently.

    The radiator does not SUDDENLY become blocked, so in this case you can temporarily put that possibility to one side.
    The fan only kicks in when you're going slowly, so you can temporarily put that aside too. (Besides which, in your photo I can see it spinning !)
    The Welsh plug (what Robmac calls the pressure plug) behind the water pump may have come out but that probably would have locked up your water pump and you would have noticed, so you may be able to temporarily discount this too.
    Besides which.....if it comes out and doesn't destroy the water pump impellor, and everything still works, this will not cause MAJOR overheating like you had. It does cause overheating but not really major as you described.

    In other words, most common cause is thermostat, then water leak. Check your hoses carefully.
    Don't forget.....don't fill up to the very top of the radiator as that water will get spat out anyway when you get up to operating temp. The radiator finds it's own ideal level......usually about halfway between the vanes (which you can see down the radiator cap hole) and the top of the radiator. In other words, about 1 1/2 or 2 inches below the top.

    When you have fixed everything and know all your hoses are good, THEN fill system with water plus coolant (corrosion inhibitor). It's pointless until then though....that is the last step.
    Last edited by Beano; 13th January 2012 at 08:50 PM.

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    It's a 504. When was the last time the radiator was taken out and sent to a radiator place to have the tanks taken off and the radiator rodded through? If the answer is more than 2 or 3 years, 9 times out of 10 this will be your 504 overheating problem. The solutions proffered above are all possible but I will bet it is a clogged radiator. In any event this is always the starting point in a 504 and will need to be done even if the other problems manifest themselves. The fact that AC belt is missing may point to its removall to overcome the afforesaid overheating problem. This is even more likely if the fan is on ALL of the time as someone may have set it up that way to help the cooling. Fix the radiator first! 504s are fine temperature wise ONLY with standard radiator in tip top condition. Neil [also a 79 GL]
    PS radiators don't suddenly block up as Beano says BUT a radiator that is fine around town can have just enough extra crap stirred up on a trip like yours to tip it over the edge into overheating. Been there done that too many times in too many cars- you get trapped by it being fine on short trips.
    Last edited by neil s; 14th January 2012 at 12:48 PM. Reason: update

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beano View Post



    ....The Welsh plug (what Robmac calls the pressure plug) behind the water pump may have come out but that probably would have locked up your water pump and you would have noticed, so you may be able to temporarily discount this too.
    ....
    A welsh plug has a rim which seals into a "tubular" hole.

    A pressure plug seals by the pressure of it's rim. Peugeot water pump plugs are convex plugs. They are installed by applying pressure to the centre of the convex face. This expands the OD of the plug to make a seal on the aluminium.

    Hence the name pressure plug. There is a subtle difference.
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    I stand corrected !
    I don't trust the buggers to not come out, anyway.....Regarding the plug behind the water pump, I sometimes get a piece of aluminium welded in there, or screw a plug in with stainless steel screws (sheet metal screws break easily, whereas stainless are TOUGH)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beano View Post
    I stand corrected !
    I don't trust the buggers to not come out, anyway.....Regarding the plug behind the water pump, I sometimes get a piece of aluminium welded in there, or screw a plug in with stainless steel screws (sheet metal screws break easily, whereas stainless are TOUGH)
    If you want to be really technical the official 504 Parts Manual calls them an "expanding plug".

    This poor bloke is probably becoming very confused by all the advice.

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    All good advice!

    Not sure if the radiator cap was mentioned? I had similar problems with a faulty cap.

    The thermostats do cause trouble as well as mentioned.

    Look forward too you finding out what the issue is.

    Shobbz
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    What happened, anybody know?

    Graham Lewis

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    sorry, been really busy and so unable to do anything on it, but im doing it today..

    the thermostat is working fine, the hoses all are in good condition and there doesnt seem to be any leaks coming from anywhere underneath.. so ive flushed out the cooling system and put in some sealup (http://media.supercheapauto.com.au/sca/images/0468.jpg - which is what the guy at burson's recommended was the best to use) and will drain that and fill it up with coolant once its finished running through the system.. hopefully that solves the problem..

    but while doing all this i have come up with another problem.. as i was undoing the radiator tap, it was so stuck the whole thing came off.. it doesnt seem like anything snapped, it looks like it is just a press fit over a lip around the drain hole on the radiator body.. i pushed it back on and it stays there when the radiator is full and the engine has run for like half an hour.. but now it is quite a bit easier to come off than when i first tried it.. is this normal? or am i risking the whole thing coming off while im driving? can anyone suggest any way to fix it?

    anyway, thanks again for all your help, will let you know how it goes..

    cheers
    gus

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    Quote Originally Posted by guskenny83 View Post
    sorry, been really busy and so unable to do anything on it, but im doing it today..

    the thermostat is working fine, the hoses all are in good condition and there doesnt seem to be any leaks coming from anywhere underneath.. so ive flushed out the cooling system and put in some sealup (http://media.supercheapauto.com.au/sca/images/0468.jpg - which is what the guy at burson's recommended was the best to use) and will drain that and fill it up with coolant once its finished running through the system.. hopefully that solves the problem..

    but while doing all this i have come up with another problem.. as i was undoing the radiator tap, it was so stuck the whole thing came off.. it doesnt seem like anything snapped, it looks like it is just a press fit over a lip around the drain hole on the radiator body.. i pushed it back on and it stays there when the radiator is full and the engine has run for like half an hour.. but now it is quite a bit easier to come off than when i first tried it.. is this normal? or am i risking the whole thing coming off while im driving? can anyone suggest any way to fix it?

    anyway, thanks again for all your help, will let you know how it goes..

    cheers
    gus
    Hi Gus,

    If the tap has come away from the tank it needs to be soldered back on. If you don't have this done then the most likely outcome will be a sudden and complete loss of coolant when it falls off while motoring down the road.

    If you are unable to locate any leaks anywhere, including inside the engine, and you are still losing coolant then check the big welsh plugs at the back of the cylinder head. Inspect them very carefully with a torch and mirror and remember, you can only see the outside - the side that doesn't contact coolant. The inside can be deeply pitted with maybe only a pin hole visible from the outside. I can tell you from experience, a very small hole can dump coolant at a rapid rate.

    Peter

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    yeah, i decided to err on the side of caution and leave it til friday when i can pull the radiator and take it to a radiator shop to get fixed.. probably could do with re-co anyway (on that note, does anyone know a good place in brunswick? or northcote where the car is now..)

    i will do that and put it all back together and hopefully that has solved the problem.. will keep you posted

    thanks for all the help

    cheers

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    If you are going to take the radiator out pull the water pump off and check the plug behind the impeller, much better to be sure that is all OK.
    And I have seen many cars in my 40 years as a Pug mechanic where the plug comes loose and chews the impeller blades off resulting in no coolant flow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ianrobbo View Post
    If you are going to take the radiator out pull the water pump off and check the plug behind the impeller, much better to be sure that is all OK.
    And I have seen many cars in my 40 years as a Pug mechanic where the plug comes loose and chews the impeller blades off resulting in no coolant flow.
    And the rotation of the impeller can cause the, now loose, plug to spin around and cut its way down through the head.

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