504 Ti injection problem
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  1. #1
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    Default 504 Ti injection problem

    I got a call at 3:30 a.m. by David Gough, one of the entrants in the London to Cape Town rally. (504 Ti with KF injection, wade 112, 10.5:1 CR, extractors). He was in the stage and gradually losing cylinders, at the end of the stage he saw that there was fuel flow to the KF pump but nothing coming out. Still a bit dazed (I had been awake 20 seconds) I suggested losening the pipes to the injectors just in case there was an airlock, a minute later I heard the engine run and the phone line went dead. Evidently the fix was a short lived one, he had to repeat the procedure every 40 km or so and he finally stopped 12 hours later somewhere in France and called again. He said the fuel pressure and flow rate coming out of the Bosch pump felt weak, and he had organized a semi-suitable replacement for tomorrow morning. He believes this will solve the problem, but I don't feel quite as confident. I have never had a Bosch pump fail, but I understand that they make a whining noise for some time before they give up the ghost. I also don't understand why a failing pump would cause an airlock.

    I know there is a lot of KF knowledge on this forum, perhaps the symptoms sound familiar to someone. So, all hands on deck, let's make sure DG and his 504 cross to Africa. Time is limited, they will be up and running in around six hours.

    The remaining 504's seem to be problem free, if a bit slow. But then again there are 10 cars within 10 minutes and lots of rallying left. By the time this is over, I expect the differences will be measured in hours.

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  2. #2
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    sounds like a blockage in the line from the fuel pump at the rear of the car and the injection pump is sucking in air through perished seals hence the air

    i'd be checking pressure from the rear pump
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo View Post
    sounds like a blockage in the line from the fuel pump at the rear of the car and the injection pump is sucking in air through perished seals hence the air

    i'd be checking pressure from the rear pump
    Also check the rear filter, this is notorious for blocking up, and yes if you stop it will clear for a bit.
    Graham

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts Mike Tippett's Avatar
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    Check the suction valve screen filters (underside of hydraulic head) and also the screen at the entrance to the hydraulic head for particulate blockage. I hope they thoroughly cleaned out the tank before beginning, because this sounds like a sediment problem.

    Airlocks are basically impossible unless the fuel lift pump (electric) has failed.
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  5. #5
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    Hi Thanos, I've basically had two problems on the run.

    The first, and very regular, as Graham mentioned the rear filter blocking up. In the Red Centre to Gold Coast I changed heaps by the side of the road, the symptom being a gradual loss of power and rev range.

    The second was a rebuilt Bosch pump running low on pressure. After swapping to the spare I later removed the pump, banged it on my hand, reinstalled it and it ran fine. The guy who rebuilds my pumps ( and provided another spare) reckons it must have managed to get a bit of crap in one of the valves. I then pressure tested it and it came up as ok (and is probably the one still on the car). I think I'm a bit optimistic about another pump being the fix?

    I take it from your post that he has taken the rear line of the injector pump and there is not much fuel coming out, or did he just mean not coming out via the injectors?? Usually there is good flow at both ends of the pump. Crook suction valves can be a reason for fuel not to get to the injectors, a more common problem than delivery valves? It would be unusual to have this take out all cylinders though, they usually just go off on one.

    I'll put my thinking cap on so send through any more info you get (here or via email).

    Cheers

    Jim

  6. #6
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    PS I should say that the majority of times when someone thinks they have a problem with a ti injector pump the issue turns out to be electrical!!

  7. #7
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    My thanks to all, I sent Dave the link to this thread. I will keep you updated.

  8. #8
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    UPDATE!

    They replaced the Bosch pump and all was well for about 100 miles, then the problems started.

    There was a noise from the metering pump and it stopped, they tapped it and it started again. The engine runs on three cylinders for part of the time because there is intermitent interruption of fuel supply to injector #2. When there is fuel in all four cylibders the car is running fine. It does not seem to be load related as backing off does not solve the problem.

    They have covered at least 300 miles like that and they have another 300 to go before they stop in Florence, it's going to be a VERY long day.

    Any idea as to what is happening?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThanosK View Post
    UPDATE!

    They replaced the Bosch pump and all was well for about 100 miles, then the problems started.

    There was a noise from the metering pump and it stopped, they tapped it and it started again. The engine runs on three cylinders for part of the time because there is intermitent interruption of fuel supply to injector #2. When there is fuel in all four cylibders the car is running fine. It does not seem to be load related as backing off does not solve the problem.

    They have covered at least 300 miles like that and they have another 300 to go before they stop in Florence, it's going to be a VERY long day.

    Any idea as to what is happening?
    Did they change the rear filter?

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Did they change the rear filter?
    i'll 2nd that

    sounds like it's starving, why do people go down the hard path first ?
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  11. #11
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    I believe they have changed the filter, but if it was the filter, would it only starve only the second cylinder?

  12. #12
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThanosK View Post
    I believe they have changed the filter, but if it was the filter, would it only starve only the second cylinder?
    it will starve all but a weak seal will allow air in
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    A problem with the auxilliary, if fitted, fuel tank plumbing. Filler cap vented?
    Too many in line filters being used?

  14. #14
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    They made it to Florence! 750 miles of twisties on 3 cylinders!

    I will pass along the recommendations and keep the forum updated.

  15. #15
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    They need to determine whether there is sufficient pressure at the injector pump. Low pressure can lead to all kinds of issues and the cylinder with the weakest suction valve,delivery valve, or injector could be the first to show issues. Like Rambo says try the simpliest things first. Be sure the filters are clean and there is no restriction in the delivery side. Make sure the Bosch pump is working solidly. If possible check the pressure at the front. You need to be comfortable this is all ok before attacking the injector pump itself. If fuel delivery pressure checks out the problem could be in the injector pump.

    Issues with the injector pump may be isolated by trying to move the problem, that is, swap delivery valves (or suction valves, or injectors) between cylinders in order to see if the problem can be identified by a process of elimination. For example if the problem moves with swapping delivery valves then the delivery valve from the original cylinder may be the problem, and so on with the other "moveable" components. With moving pump bits about there can be an issue with bleeding the system after each change.

    To really make a difference you need a few spare components so if a weak on is identified it can be swapped out to see if that cures the issue completely.

    If the problem can't be moved it could be a sticky plunger in the pump body? To check this would involve pulling the pump body off which is getting serious unless you have some knowledge??

    If you are doing no good it is always worth confirming that compression is ok on the affected cylinder and you haven't got unlucky with a valve...

    Hope some of this may help. Good luck!!

    Cheers

    Jim

  16. #16
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    The fact the pump stopped and that it ran ok for a time after being replaced makes me think wiring to the pump or terminals. Could also be an earth problem.

  17. #17
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    Default Intrepid Rally Men

    In the good old days often the terrible fuse box in 504's would heat up at the fuel pump fuse and stop contacting or burning the fuse ends.
    It was very common for this to happen in hot or wet days or if the filters, front or rear were blocking up.
    If the pump heats up enough it can boil some fuel but also if it cavitates it will leave petrol as a gas in the fuel system. Yes eventually the gas (not air) may be worked out of the vapour trap/fuel return at the engine filter but if the heating or cavitation does not stop, vapour in the injection lines.
    I just thought of this an hour ago.

  18. #18
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    Default Running for three days now!

    The car is up and running, but it has been an adventure. Dave contacted me in the morning with the news that they were being towed to the overnight stop 200 km from Athens as the car would not run and they believed the head gasket had also blown. At that point we thought that the safest thing to do would be to convert to a carburetted system, attempting a repair to the injection system with a possibly warped head was very risky and missing the boat to Egypt the next day meant the end of the line for car 44. A frantic effort began to get them to Africa as soon as we got off the phone. I located a XN1 Siamese port head, the larger of the two 604 carbies and an adaptor plate to fit the carby to the XN1 manifold. The head was taken to the machine shop to reco, 5 angle cuts and a skim that would give a 10:1 CR so it would work with Dave's Wade 112. The service van left early so they could be set up by the time the flatbed arrived and I waited around to collect the head from the machine shop. I was a bit delayed picking up the bits, and I then decided to drive the 504 there just in case we needed to raid it for parts, or even the engine. I drove the 200 km flat out, thankfully I had no encounters with the authorities and I arrived the around 20 minutes after Dave. It was all hands on deck when we finally met, my two mechanics with the rally service van, Dave, and the famous Motorman who I had called to bring, connect and plumb two Facet pumps and tune the carby. They put me to my best possible use by asking me to stay away. The Facets were wired in and delivered fuel through the return line to the carby, the head was replaced and the KF injection pump remained in place, only the feed lines to the intake were removed. The engine bay looked like Frankenstein with an injection pump going nowhere and an XN1 head, but at 7:45 a.m. , nearly 14 hours after the work started, and after having limped through four countries, the car was up and running happily with good power, Dave had gotten two hours of sleep and there was even time for a quick breakfast before their start.

    The car has been running problem-free for three days under adverse conditions: torrential downpours and sleet in Greece, followed by the heat and sand of the Egyptian desert. They have just crossed to Saudi and I have every confidence the engine will make it to Cape Town. The rest of the car seems well sorted.

    The other 504's in the event look great but most have made the mistake of using stock or slightly stiffer springs in the rear so there is major ass-dragging in evidence. The two French Ti's are looking great except for that, very well prepared with slightly warmed up KF engines. I loaned one of them a set of works-spec rear springs to get him through Africa, the other organized a set that will be waiting for him in Saudi.

    A very interesting group, the variation in car cost and level of preparation is amazing, the variation in driver skill even more so. The old Acropolis gravel stages ate many of them alive but thankfully there were no injuries to flesh. The organization seems flawless in spite of the many curve balls that have been thrown their way, I don't know how the staff keep their sanity.
    Last edited by ThanosK; 10th January 2012 at 09:57 PM.

  19. #19
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    Great story Thanos! Three cheers for the 504 fraternity!
    John W

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    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  20. #20
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    Great story Thanos, very nice to read your story. Thank you for sharing your adventures ..

    Bobby

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    Once upon a time, there was something like this... in our country, rally REAL COMPETITION, interventions at the side of the road, plenty of spares in the boot... good to know that still exists.

    Thanks for this, Thanos.


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    awesome history!! Thanks for share it with us

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts Mike Tippett's Avatar
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    Beautiful! Is there an online blog where this stuff is shown in images?
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Tippett View Post
    Beautiful! Is there an online blog where this stuff is shown in images?
    www.londontocapetownrally.com

    You will find the detailed organizer's blog there. If you also go to "participants" the ones with red numbers link to individual competitors' blogs if available.

    My guess is that the s%^t will start hitting the fan pretty soon. Sand from Egypt all over the starters and clutch, belts, bearings etc. Played out suspensions are not the best way to contest Kenyan gravel...

    For the life of me I can't figure out how some contestants feel their cars can make it through, they are fairly standard 30-40 year old cars that got a set of brake pads and an oil change (ok and some stickers) before the event.

  25. #25
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    Not Peugeot, but certainly over-the-top service story! This happened the day that the ferry was supposed to sail, and it was taken to Motorman's bodyshop associate at around 4 p.m. It is important to realize that this day was a legal holiday in Greece and there are no 240z parts to be found in Greece anyway. The boat was supposed to sail for Alexandria at 11 p.m., it left at 10:30 because the gale 8 winds were getting stronger by the minute. The flatbed with the car arrived at 10:35 p.m. as the boat was pulling away. But the car is rejoining the rally, even though this was the ONLY boat to Alexandria and a special charter. See how that happened (read the tweets and see all photos):

    http://www.milliondollardatsun.com/


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