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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts catshamlet's Avatar
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    Icon9 Well that's just grate...

    The 708 failed to proceed...changed gear last night and no more drive.

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    Just a horrible clunk followed by a terrible grating noise from somewhere around the gearbox, so I suspect the splines on either the propshaft or the gearbox (or maybe both?) are knackered. I'll find out when I get it taken apart.

    There had been a clunk from somewhere earlier in the day that didn't sound good. The propshaft was shortened about 8" and balanced, and seemed fine until yesterday.

    Anway, any ideas why this would happen? The car's done about 120,000 miles.



    Mike.
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  2. #2
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    I'd be looking at the universal joint behind the gearbox. The propshafts themselves have been known to break. It is after all handling a lot more power.

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    1000+ Posts catshamlet's Avatar
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    Default Thanks, Russell, but....

    I don't have a universal joint - the gearbox, torque tube , propshaft, and diff. are all from the 505 saloon.



    Mike.
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    the splines where the propshaft, meets the pinion, may have stripped? If this be the case, the most common cause is either e bent torque tube OR the internal spring that sits on the end of the pinion and slides up inside the internal torquetube spline, has inadvertently fallen out during assembly, if this be the case, there is relative movement between the inner/outer splines, and wear occurrs, with ultimate stripping of internal torque tube splines.

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    I always wondered what those springs really did !
    My old 504 sagged where the prop shaft joined the gearbox and stripped the splines. The 2 lower bolts came loose. The gearbox output shaft splines were ok, so I got a 404 universal joint, got the appropriate piece (spline part) cut off and welded onto the front of the existing prop shaft. Then the engineering shop dynamically balanced it. It was half the price of a secondhand prop shaft......the local wrecker wanted too much.

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    Clever solution there Beano, good example of thinking outside of square.

    And yes, loosening of the bolts at front of torque tube will also result in sheared propshaft splines, as the 'sag' causes the propshaft to rotate in elyptical circles, causing relative movement between inner/outer droveshaft splines, causing excess wear and eventual stripping.

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts catshamlet's Avatar
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    Yeah, great idea Beano, I like it!

    Not that I've got round to taking anything apart to see what's what, but assuming it is the gearbox end that's stripped and the gearbox splines are ok I'll give that a go. I've already got a spare propshaft, and there's a little tale that explains why

    The 505 torque tube and propshaft both needed to be shortened to suit the 203, so I took them to a local engineering place and made my usual mistake of saying I wasn't in a hurry to get them back, and any time in the next month or two would do. After about six weeks I popped in to see how things were going and they hadn't touched either of 'em. But they'd do them next week. Fair enough.

    So I popped round a couple of weeks later and the tube was done but not the propshaft. They'd do that next week. Fair enough.

    Popped in a fortnight later a couple of days before Christmas Eve because I wanted to work on the car over the hols. Propshaft still hadn't been touched, the main man wasn't there, so I explained what was what to his sidekick and that I needed it before they closed for the hols. Went back the next day and it was done, but just a quick look at it on the bench showed it was no good. It wasn't straight and somehow they'd managed to "lose" the internal stop for the spring at the diff. end. Useless
    Anyway, I wished them a Merry Christmas and left.

    So I got another propshaft and got it shortened at another place. They got it right at the second attempt. Hey, you can say what you like about British workmanship, seriously you can.

    Hence the spare shaft, but no universal joint.

    Sooo...if I cut the splines off the gearbox end of the shaft and get it welded to my shaft with a universal joint from somewhere I'd end up with Beano's cunning plan?

    Any idea which car would be good to get a universal joint from?



    Mike.
    Started out with nothing, still got most of it left.

  8. #8
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    The latest Peugeot to use the universal joint was the 505 wagon.

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    1000+ Posts catshamlet's Avatar
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    Silly me, of course it was! Thanks for the memory jogger.

    And I know just the guy to get one from, I'll ring him on Tuesday. (Idle bugger, a Yorkshireman incidentally , stays in bed on a Monday).



    Mike.
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  10. #10
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catshamlet View Post

    Sooo...if I cut the splines off the gearbox end of the shaft and get it welded to my shaft with a universal joint from somewhere I'd end up with Beano's cunning plan?
    Hi Mike, That's worded a little oddly, so just in case we've got crossed wires somewhere, a universal joint is not used on the sedan. Though you probably realize that.
    The reason I bought a secondhand uni joint was only to chop off the spline part on the front of it. The rest of it ( the part that flexes ) I discarded.
    However you may not even need to buy a uni joint.
    If you have the old prop shaft which your first machine shop stuffed up, is there enough of the spline left to chop it off and get someone else to re-weld it on to your current prop shaft ? Assuming it is the front end which is stuffed, that is.....
    Or did they weld it so close to the end that the part where the oil seal bears on the shaft is going to be affected ? It'd pay to have a really close look at where the oil seal actually seals onto the shaft.
    They can use the internal stop for the spring which is in the current (stuffed) shaft.
    All in all though, you really need to take apart the current setup and see what is actually going on in there, before buying anything or doing anything else.
    I sometimes use a pair of vise-grips to help pull ( and lever !) the prop shaft out, as there is usually a misalignment between torque tube and box as you're trying to take it apart........ the assembly sags once you've undone all 4 bolts. The prop shaft will not just slide backwards easily. But then it's not too hard either, if you lever it back using a pair of multigrips/visegrips. The only thing stopping it moving back freely is the misalignment.
    Just don't grab the prop shaft on the place where the oil seal bears.

    P.S.....My gearbox splines were FINE ! I got the impression that Peugeot had engineered the whole thing so that the prop shaft spline metal was just a tiny bit softer than the gearbox output spline metal.

    So .....I wonder WHY your current setup failed ???? Misalignment during welding ? Needs to be thoroughly checked, I'd say.
    Don't forget.....this is very important.......High-temp grease.......usually lithium.......HAS to be put on this spline setup as you're assembling it. Otherwise it'll fail. Er....you DID put some in when assembling last time ???
    If you did, the problem may well be the first place not welding your torque tube together properly, or the second place not doing the prop shaft properly. The engineering shop I went to said they had a jig they put it in to make sure it was all square.
    If we were both in Oz (I'm in Thailand), I'd GIVE you an entire propshaft......I have 3 spares I've hoarded. And having said that, is there anyone in your general area who might have also ? People tend to save em after having one chew out, then never have need for one again.
    Last edited by Beano; 31st October 2011 at 06:30 PM.

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts catshamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beano View Post
    So .....I wonder WHY your current setup failed ???? Misalignment during welding ? Needs to be thoroughly checked, I'd say.
    Don't forget.....this is very important.......High-temp grease.......usually lithium.......HAS to be put on this spline setup as you're assembling it. Otherwise it'll fail. Er....you DID put some in when assembling last time ???
    If you did, the problem may well be the first place not welding your torque tube together properly, or the second place not doing the prop shaft properly. The engineering shop I went to said they had a jig they put it in to make sure it was all square.
    I'm sure I greased it when I assembled it. It's the possible misalignment of the tube or the shaft that I think might have caused my current little problem.
    Anyway, we'll see when I get it apart.

    Even though the saloon doesn't normally have a universal joint, I was hoping that by fitting one that it would take care of any slight misalignment? Must admit, I thought that was what you had done, but I must've misunderstood.



    Mike.
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  12. #12
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    People fit universal joints to Pugs when they're fitting gearboxes from different makes of car, but I don't think it's an easy process.
    It'd be good to find out for sure what caused your little problem. Checking the tube and shaft for having been welded up square should be fairly easy once they're out. At least engineering shop #2 will be able to........if you trust em to not fib to you about their own previous work !
    Not sure how they do it.

    Currently I'm taking train and taxis.....In Thailand they're about one sixth the price they are in Australia.....maybe less even !
    My 505 still registered and sitting in a friend's yard in Oz.........

    Good luck with the job.

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    personally I wouldn't put a UJ on a saloon setup.

    The beauty of the saloon design is that the engine mounts hardly have to react against engine torque at all. They just support the weight of the engine.

    When you accelerate hard the torque reaction of the drive shafts acts on the entire drive train (engine / transmission / diff) as one complete unit, effectively trying to lift the engine straight up but on the end of a very long lever (the torque tube and transmission). The twisting forces between diff and transmission are entirely controlled by the solid torque tube.

    If you put a UJ in there won't the diff try to twist off of its mountings? Surely it isn't designed for that type of force?

    This wouldn't be an issue on a wagon (estate) because the diff is part of a solid axle and so the twisting is controlled by the axle and road wheels.

    This is all my theory of course and could all be rubbish...

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    Quote Originally Posted by dieselnutjob View Post
    If you put a UJ in there won't the diff try to twist off of its mountings? Surely it isn't designed for that type of force?

    This wouldn't be an issue on a wagon (estate) because the diff is part of a solid axle and so the twisting is controlled by the axle and road wheels.

    This is all my theory of course and could all be rubbish...
    No, I know what you're saying and you're right - if I was trying to do it without the torque tube.

    I'm hoping there'll be enough room to fit a UJ to the shaft inside the tube, forward of the centre bearing if it's the gearbox end that's goosed, to the rear of the bearing if it's the diff. end that's thrown in the towel.

    If there is room to fit a UJ, I may well fit two, one immediately in front of the centre bearing and the other on the end at the gearbox. (Vice versa if dodgy diff. end)



    Mike.
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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    I hate to disappoint, but there's no room in there for uni joints, Mike.
    Best to just set it up the way it was designed to be. Making things more complex really opens up a can of worms.
    All it'll take is to make sure the welding jobs on both torque tube and propshaft were done square. You need to know what caused it to chew out so it won't happen again.
    The engineering shop needs to make some kind of jig to hold it straight while welding. ( If they don't have something already ). If they want to charge too much to make one, you might be able to make the jig yourself.

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts catshamlet's Avatar
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    Bugger.



    Mike.
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    could you use bits off of an estate torque tube (although it isn't really a torque tube on an estate) which has got room inside for a UJ ?
    then you could just weld up the bendy bit on the outside so that it then is a solid torque tube but with a UJ inside.

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts catshamlet's Avatar
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    Afraid I don't really understand what you mean, I've never seen an estate torque tube/propshaft setup, but I thought both saloon and estate tubes were the same diameter and the only UJ on an estate was fastened like a ball joint on the outside of the tube at the front?

    Anyway, took my propshaft and tube to another engineering place (that'll be #3 ). Fortunately it is the splines on the gearbox end of the propshaft that have stripped, but even better, the splines on the gearbox itsself are undamaged.

    I just hope they can sort this and make it reliable, I don't want to be doing this every 10,000 miles. I mean, one could get stranded somewhere ghastly like Uzbekistan or, gawd preserve us, even worse, bloody Wimmera!



    Mike.
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    I mean, one could get stranded somewhere ghastly like Uzbekistan or, gawd preserve us, even worse, bloody Wimmera!



    Mike.

    One has to ask what you would be doing in such God forsaken places in the first place?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dieselnutjob View Post
    could you use bits off of an estate torque tube (although it isn't really a torque tube on an estate) which has got room inside for a UJ ?
    then you could just weld up the bendy bit on the outside so that it then is a solid torque tube but with a UJ inside.
    The estate has a torque tube, it is the sedan that hasn't.

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts catshamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 59 Floride View Post
    One has to ask what you would be doing in such God forsaken places in the first place?
    Tis a recurring nightmare, and I do a fair bit of sleep-walking. Who knows were I might end up?



    Mike.
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    Does your nightmare also include a crazy local following you around lecturing endlessly on the virtues of originality?

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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Or perhaps tweaking some kind of complex mechanism, and suddenly springs and tiny parts leap out everywhere ?

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    You fear being stuck in the backblocks but the place not to break down is Melbourne. Tens of thousands of cars will stream by you with no offer of assistance except for occasional abuse. I've had friends break down on their strange freeway system (one in a 203) and they assure me the only help you get is what you pay for. In the more backward areas of the world you are more likely get old fashioned courtesy and assistance, often quite a lot of it, given without expectation of reward. So if you suffered this breakdown in Uzbekistan the chances are you would have been given great hospitality while the village blacksmith grafted the transmission from a Pobeida onto your car.

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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Jeez ! Getting that bad down there these days, is it ? Sounds like Los Angeles already.

    I heard a story of someone who got a flat motorbike tyre in rural Vietnam, and some locals who had no way of fixing the badly torn inner tube..... or an air pump.... took off the tyre, stuffed it with rags and put it back on......all for free. It worked !
    Last edited by Beano; 3rd November 2011 at 12:21 AM.

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