Please help me with my little 306 :(
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  1. #1
    Member Jacqueline's Avatar
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    Default Please help me with my little 306 :(

    Hi everyone, I'm new here so a big hello,

    I have just purchased a 1997 306 n3 xt 1.8l automatic peugeot (only 71,000 genuine km's on it). This is my first ever puegeot... My brother is a volvo guru and suggested I have a puegeot.

    So when I purchased the car, the owner told me that the car stalled at lights and loses it's rev's. So I contacted the closest peugeot mechanic to me (600km away) and had the car sent there before I got it. They diagnosed a stepper motor fault and replaced the stepper motor (at a cost of $514.00AUS). Now, whilst driving it back from the puegeot garage, the car presented an issue with leaking fuel, so drove it back to the garage and they diagnosed a check valve split (it perished), so that was then replaced. After another attempt to drive home, the car presented the absolute opposite of stalling at lights (and whilst stationary etc), it now rev's up high (between 1000rpm and 3000 rpm when in neutral and park). The car drives absolutely beautiful when it's not at lights etc.. Only when stationary in park and neutral does it do this strange high rev thing, it's almost like a ghost is in the car pushing down the accelerator.

    I absolutely love the car, but am so concerned about why it is doing this, when apparently the stepper motor issue (that controls idle speed i presume) has been completely replaced and run through diagnostics and shows no signs of demise.

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    I would also like to note that the rev issue doesn't happen when the air con is turned up full blast (I presume it's because it takes power from the engine etc)

    Any knowledge and suggestions/assistance on this would be muchly appreciated. I'd be devastated if there isn't anything I could do


    Thanks,
    Jacqueline.

  2. #2
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    Hi Jacqueline,
    Welcome. Sorry to hear about the problems. It could be something very basic like before, when the car was stalling, someone simply turned the idle speed up as high as they could go to try to keep the car running. My guess is that now that you have fixed the problem, the idle has never been adjusted back to a normal speed.

    You are correct in guessing that the air-con takes some of the power away, so that would be my guess. Obviously you live a long way away from a specialist, but my guess is that this can be fixed by any mechanic who wants to spare a half hour to adjust a few basic things.

    I can't remember where the idle adjustment is, but start by havinng a look at where the accelerator cable attaches to teh engine. There will be a half circle plastic disc with a cable going into/onto it. If you rotate the plstic disc by hand with the motor running (noisy at 3000 revs though) the engine speed will go up. When you let the disc go back to its rest position, the engine speed will drop. The trick is to find an adjusting screw or lock nut or something, that is stopping the disc from returning as far as it ought to go.

    If you can find something, adjust it back so that the revs drop to about 1000 rpm at idle (should actually be about 800, but start a bit higher) and then see how you go.

    Like I said, any mechanic should be able to do this for you.

    Good luck, they are nice cars, Erik

  3. #3
    Member Jacqueline's Avatar
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    Hi Erik,

    Thank-you very much for your advice. I think you may be right and I feel a heck of alot better now . There is a puegeot dealer where I live, about 10 mins away from my home actually, however, my brother dealt with them a year ago with his volvo and they gave him a bad time. In saying this though, we went to that dealer yesterday to order a dipstick for my little 306, and they were quite good about it and promised it would be here some time this morning.

    Thank-you for certifying my assertion with the air-con thing, I presumed as much.

    And okay, I'll inform my brother and my partner about where the idle adjusment may be (they are a little more engine savvy then me ). I'm planning on buying one of the Haynes manuals for my little 306, would you have any idea where to buy one? (my guess would be the likes of ebay or an online shop of sorts?).

    Thanks again for your knowledge and much appreciated assistance Erik,

    Jacqueline

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts catshamlet's Avatar
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    Icon7

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacqueline View Post
    And okay, I'll inform my brother and my partner about where the idle adjusment may be....
    There's surely a sm[email protected] answer to that, but nah, least said soonest mended etc..



    Mike.
    Started out with nothing, still got most of it left.

  5. #5
    sans witticism SLC206's Avatar
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    AFAIK, there is no manual or mechanical adjustment of the idle speed - it's controlled by the ECU moving the stepper motor. That is what it's for, after all.

    If a new stepper motor is fitted (or the old one is cleaned) the ECU takes its sweet time adjusting itself to the correct idle speed.

    Try starting it and letting it idle it a few times.

    Perhaps, disconnecting the battery for 10 mins (please be careful if you have a radio that needs a code to work) will reset the ECU's memory on this subject.

    Even from there, it can still take its time before settling down.
    Regards,

    Simon

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  6. #6
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    Default temp sender

    the ECU regulates idle speed relitive to engine temperature ,if the temp sender is faulty or has a loose connection, the ecu could be getting the message that the engine is cold so upping the idle speed ,on my 89 405 MI it was situated on the side of the thermistat housing [a blue socket ],it used to come loose every so often producing similar symptoms ,this is a much later model so could be completely different ,PUGS

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    You might need to get the car onto a diagnostic computer, and have someone who knows their EFI sh!t run through the likely suspects.

    SHort of that, the likely suspects in my opinion are TPS, coolant sensor and IAC valve.

    If the TPS(throttle position sensor) is not returning home and giving the ecu a throtle closed reading, the IAC will not function as designed.

    If the throttle is not closing because of the cable being too tight, same deal, no closed throttle signal but with the bonus of extra air added to the motor.

    On my EFI (non pug) the idle air control valve wont kick in until the throttle has returned to below 5% open.

    At above 5% ,it is frozen and will not dynamically effect airflow to the motor.

    Jo

  8. #8
    Member Jacqueline's Avatar
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    Wow, these are great responses from everyone! I'm feeling a little more confident and in comprehension of what may be going on. This is the only issue with the car, it is otherwise absolutely pristine and an absolute pleasure to drive.

    Pugwash, you mentioned that the idle speed will be adjusted by temp, however, the perculiar thing is, when the car is at the lights, the temp needle jolts way over half way, and the rev's go up, rather then the other way round (as you suggested). Maybe there is a fault? Or maybe as you say SLC206, it just needs its sweet time to adjust.

    My partner is leaning more toward what you said though Jo. He is not very savvy with european cars (he owns an 011 Holden Commodore VE SSV, but doesn't want anything to do with it now the pug has arrived!! hehe!), so he's been really knuckling down over the past few days and doing alot of reading on the pug, and has come to a similar conclusion as you.

    We have decided to make an appointment with the local peugeot mechanics (and test the water, as there has been alot of negative feedback about them) and see what they come up with.

    Another question, whats all of your opinions on taking the little pug to Pedders to have its bushes etc replaced? Are pedders really acceptable for euro cars? My partner has been getting aftermarket suspension work done with them for ages and we have built a great relationship with them, so I booked the pug in to have a 28 point safety check and maybe some new bushes. However, I am a little cautious sending it there as I don't think they have much to do with euro cars. Everyone's thoughts on this would be really appreciated.

    Thanks again everyone for giving your time and answering my concerns and offering me suggestions, I really appreciate it.

    Jacqueline

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! patpug's Avatar
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    Hi Jacqueline,

    IMHO Pedders will be fine for looking at your Pug's bushes and doing a safety check. I might get shot here, but the Pug might be euro bit it's not THAT different They might scratch their heads if you get them to do something more serious with the suspension though - especially the rear end... Our torsions bars are very superior!
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  10. #10
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    Default once again

    not real familiar with this model but the 405 uses a different sender from the guage ,but what you are describing ,could be related ,sounds like something loose or a bad earth ,douse it crank over ok ,PUGS

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Do not take your car anywhere near pedders.!!!!!





    Is that loud enough???


    I made the mistake once, and they bounced and rattled the crap out of the car.
    It was never the same after that.

    They will have issues (like everyone non french) finding parts, and will not have the localised knowledge required.


    Pedders can not even admit that they dont have the tools to remove my car's springs, and when i pushed them on how they were going to pull-off what they had quoted they reverted to being patronising.
    They couldn't even find out where to get a tie rod from after a week.

    If you drive a foulc-a-door or land cruiser, they might be Ok, but not for your french car.



    Jo

  12. #12
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    Our 306 used to stop at idle when warm - at the lights - a lot. Since I had the timing belt done it hasn't been as bad, but still happens. My mechanic says it probably a small breather hose which might have a crack in it. (makes sense as something might have got moved slightly when the timing cover was off). Trouble is I dont know which one it is, but it's on the RHS near the right strut.
    1998 Peugeot 406 D8SV Manual
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  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! paulrb's Avatar
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    Default Dip Sticks..

    I am the guy standing at the back saying 'What he said' to all of the good advice you have had so far.

    You mentioned that you ordered a dip-stick from the dealer..... How much did it cost?

    About 5X what you could have got it for I'd suspect.

    Your car is now of an age that there are plenty in wreckers.

    There are Peugeot specialist wreckers in every state.

    They know these cars.

    There are parts to buy from a wreckers, and parts not to buy.

    You won't go to a wreckers for Windscreen wiper blades, because as you would know, the older they are the crappier they work. So new it good. But a dip-stick is just a rod of metal with a plastic knob. They last for many years, unless the knob cracks.

    I am not trying to be patronising, because as you have already discovered, Peugeots can be very expensive with spare parts, and you need to be on the ball getting them. Sometimes eBay is great for parts from the UK, especially things that wear out, but aren't too big or heavy, like suspension bushes, and other times, a door handle, replacement for you air-con knob, vent plastic, is better sourced from a from a wreckers as they will be as good as a new one.

    Finally you have taken the first step in working out which bits are good to get where, and which bits you try for problem solving..... You joined Oz Frogs... This is what you will get.

    Enjoy your 306, they are great.... maybe post some photos.!!
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  14. #14
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    Default 306 idle

    Quote Originally Posted by pugnut1 View Post
    Our 306 used to stop at idle when warm - at the lights - a lot. Since I had the timing belt done it hasn't been as bad, but still happens. My mechanic says it probably a small breather hose which might have a crack in it. (makes sense as something might have got moved slightly when the timing cover was off). Trouble is I dont know which one it is, but it's on the RHS near the right strut.
    Hi Gerry, have a look at the map sensor in front of power booster, behind strut tower and bolted to inner guard area on body. There is a small vaccum hose which can crack with heat and age.( faces downwards from mem.) Sounds like the problem.

    Alain

  15. #15
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacqueline View Post
    Hi everyone, I'm new here so a big hello,

    I have just purchased a 1997 306 n3 xt 1.8l automatic peugeot (only 71,000 genuine km's on it). This is my first ever puegeot... My brother is a volvo guru and suggested I have a puegeot.

    I absolutely love the car, but am so concerned about why it is doing this, when apparently the stepper motor issue (that controls idle speed i presume) has been completely replaced and run through diagnostics and shows no signs of demise.
    Thanks,
    Jacqueline.
    Wow, there's a range of responses. I seem to recall seeing a Peugeot dealer last time I was in Rocky, and the 306 isn't exactly a new model, not that different from 405, so they should have seen a few by now.

    For what it is worth, I'd make a few comments.

    1. Try them out, even if there are some negative vibes. Everyone can have a bad experience but it doesn't mean they are hopeless, not necessarily.
    2.
    JohnW

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  16. #16
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    Default 306 idle problem

    [QUOTE=Jacqueline;997094]Hi everyone, I'm new here so a big hello,

    I have just purchased a 1997 306 n3 xt 1.8l automatic peugeot (only 71,000 genuine km's on it). This is my first ever puegeot... My brother is a volvo guru and suggested I have a puegeot.

    So when I purchased the car, the owner told me that the car stalled at lights and loses it's rev's. So I contacted the closest peugeot mechanic to me (600km away) and had the car sent there before I got it. They diagnosed a stepper motor fault and replaced the stepper motor (at a cost of $514.00AUS). Now, whilst driving it back from the puegeot garage, the car presented an issue with leaking fuel, so drove it back to the garage and they diagnosed a check valve split (it perished), so that was then replaced. After another attempt to drive home, the car presented the absolute opposite of stalling at lights (and whilst stationary etc), it now rev's up high (between 1000rpm and 3000 rpm when in neutral and park). The car drives absolutely beautiful when it's not at lights etc.. Only when stationary in park and neutral does it do this strange high rev thing, it's almost like a ghost is in the car pushing down the accelerator.

    Hi Jacqueline, if your 306 doesn't settle down fairly quickly (a day or so) your problem will be a stuffed throttle sensor (TPS)
    The stepper motor and throttle positioning sensors are interelated and both control the idle circuit on these 8 valve motors, and often get misdiagnosed. The TPS has 2 contacts,one for idle and one for full power.
    Have just been through the same exercise with my wifes 97 low klm 306, the only diff. was i bought 2 new stepper motors for $77 delivered!! and 2 throttle position sensors for just under $70 delivered. It's only a 5 min. job to swap over either of these parts, plus diagnosis, so keep well clear of your Peugeot specialist!
    Your pug would also be due for an oxygen sensor.This will make a huge diff. to power, driveability and fuel economy although prob. not connected to current issues.
    Make sure your car is fitted with the correct spark plugs.Have come across "experts" fitting 16 valve plugs to 8v engines. (NGK BKR5E are correct for your car) Once sorted you will have a great little car.
    Shoot me a PM if you want details for purchasing throttle switch etc.

    Alain

  17. #17
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Wow, quite a few responses here!

    I vaguely recall a Peugeot dealer in Rocky from a few years ago when I did some work there. The 306 is an old enough model for them to have experience I'd have thought. So even if some folk have had bad experiences, it doesn't mean they aren't knowledgeable. You do need to be in charge though, with clear requests.

    A few comments:

    1. If it drives well, runs straight, doesn't rattle or change direction on bumps and the shock absorbers don't leak or let the car bounce around, probably the suspension is just fine. They are well-engineered cars. Ours is 16 years old and has had some suspension bushes replaced, and new struts at about 150,000 km, but I stuck to dealer and genuine parts. There is nothing magic or totally different in a Euro car, but Pedders may not be familiar with the particular Peugeot layout. Personally, I wouldn't see a need or benefit from using them.
    2. Regarding the high idle, I'd take the advice already offered. These cars have quite standard engine control systems, no magic. There is no direct adjustment of idle speed, so one of the sensors that feeds into the system may be misbehaving or not properly connected I'd suggest.
    3. These cars do have dipsticks that disintegrate where they seal at the top. I've just bought a new one for our Citroen Xantia - the new one is more robust, didn't cost too much, and was NEW. I'd not mess around trying to find a secondhand one, but you didn't so that is over!
    4. Peugeot 306s are really good cars and well-engineered. Like all cars, they need proper servicing. You must be sure that coolant has been changed regularly (it is the heater radiator that fails, and it is difficult and expensive to change) and that the cambelt changes have been done. If you don't know when the cambelt has last been changed, and cannot find out reliably, I'd advise very strongly to have it done very soon. And get a new water pump fitted while it is changed - cheap insurance. The same applies to auto transmission fluid (you'll find plenty of posts here on that subject) and it must be the right fluid.

    Enjoy your Peugeot. You already know this forum is responsive!!

    Cheers
    JohnW

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  18. #18
    Member Jacqueline's Avatar
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    Hi everyone,

    Yes, there has been heaps of responses!!! Thank-you to everyone.

    Ok so first of all, the idle speed issue isn't so prominent now, it is happening less and less. I have booked the pug into the local peugeot mechanic (the one with the bad vibe, but i am willing to give it a go).

    To answer your question paulrb, the dipstick cost me $18.50 (is this a good price?). And yes, my partner has suggested that we look into a few wreckers in central queensland district to scope out spare parts instead of paying through the roof for new genuine parts.

    Hi Jo, ok so without even reading your advice, I had already cancelled my appointment with Pedders. My partner and I are going to see the peugeot suspension bloke here in our town, then order the parts necessary from Europarts. Fingers crossed this all goes to plan!

    I will post some photos of my pug tomorrow morning. For an older car, it is in beautiful condition.. Amidst the idle problem and possible replacement of bushes, the car is wonderful. And you wouldn't believe that I got it for under $2,000 (with only 71,000 genuine k's on the clock). The interior is immaculate and the paint is pristine. I'm sure you will all like the photos of my little pug. Will post them tomorrow morning..

    Thanks again everyone

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! Decca's Avatar
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    I wouldnt touch the suspension unless it was playing up. and I'd be wary about going to Pedders especially for their 'free' checks.
    If you want to spend some money on it I would make sure the tranny has nice fresh oil in it

    Re the idling problem...my wife's 306 had similar probs and I got local Pug guru to read the alarms in the engine management system, reset them and to head straight back to him as soon as the problem reappearred and he'd read the alarms again.
    The MAP sensor which sits at the front of the engine under the plenums was the cuplrit.

    $18.50 sounds a reasonable price for the dipstick. I find the yellow rubber gets brittle on them after a while and therefore wouldnt bother getting one from a wreckers.

    Hope you get your car purring along soon Jacqueline. They're a great car


    Decca
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