205 issues when warm/hot
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    Default 205 issues when warm/hot

    Hi all, thx for any advice in advance.

    205gti s1.5 - jetronic - recently rebuilt warm 8v

    when cold will pull like a train to redline
    when warm stutters 2.5k rpm upwards, wont pull past 3.5krpm
    when hot 3k rpm especially coming back on throttle if you stomp it might rip your neck off / stuff your driveshaft with stuttering on / off power
    after a long run if you start it within 30 minutes it will run on 2 cylinders for a while

    Initially it had been blowing blue smoke at startup - good guess that the AFM was stuffed and replaced it. That helped it idle and could set the dizzy where it needed to be but it still has heat issue.

    Replaced the coil last weekend, no effect, perhaps made it worse

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    I'm thinking maybe the SAD is playing up, but even so I'm guessing it wont cure the heat issue completely, especially the bit where you let it sit and it will nearly not run.

    Bring on any advice, kudos given for things that can be done cheaply

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Capago's Avatar
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    blue smoke? thats oil mate..

    before you throw more parts at it, have a think about it.

    why would it be the coil, usually they do or dont work (in most applications). youve replaced it so its not it.
    why would it be the afm, mine was shot on my parts car but it ran like shit and stalled. you replaced this and its not it. (unless its the wiring thats bad)
    why the SAD, that to introduce extra air on cold startup, and you say its fine cold

    so we've gathered its temperature related. Start doing a pressure test on the cooling system and check for leaks. may as well do a compression test while your waiting for the pressure tester to sit for a while. never hurt anyone but its a million to one chance its related. then, are the fans cutting in and out as they should when its hot? take note of the speed & number of fans running. out of coolant? stupid suggestion but its possible. Is the top radiator hose getting hot followed shortly after the bottom hose? heater inside the car blowing hot air? if not, radiator/thermostat/heater core need rectifying. That working? maybe the fuel/timing is wrong, and its either from (can the dizzy on the 1.9 8v be adjusted? ive got an mi16 i dont know) incorrectly adjusted timing or the engine ecu is not receiving the correct values to adjust its timing parameters accordingly....... ->coolant temp sensor<- i'd personally replace this first, obviously after completing a raft of free checks im sure you can do at home then i'd start looking at the ignition system
    Last edited by Capago; 26th September 2011 at 11:35 PM.
    The wrong oil is better than no oil at all.

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts Capago's Avatar
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    this is assuming that the correct oil/coolant/spark plugs are being used and something obvious hasnt been overlooked. I have an old-new stock SAD lying around at home if you REALLY want a new one
    The wrong oil is better than no oil at all.

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts gezza's Avatar
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    Have you tired the ignition amplifier??

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts Capago's Avatar
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    Why the ignition amp module? expensive to replace unless your sure it's at fault. I'm not saying rule it out but saying do those mechanical checks you can do for free. The guy I bought a 205 gti off had spent hundreds of dollars trying to get it to run right. Replaced pretty much the entire ignition system to no avail. It stalled when taking off and bogged down. A load related system is failing. Ignition wouldn't cause this. Air flow meter straight up, swapped with a spare worked fine.

    Like i have to do at work, an idea needs to be 'sold' to a customer. If you said ignition module needs replacing, they may very well ask why. 'ummmm' doesn't work too well. I quoted a stop light switch and solenoids for someone with a 207 with a clunking auto gearbox. Didn't fix the problem, but sold to the customer how a faulty stop switch (int. Open circuit logged) can confuse the shift pattern, failing solenoids can cause harsh changes and then sold a gearbox reco because of an internal leak, and 'sold' the fact that we can't tell it's the gearbox because solenoids show the same symptoms (which is true, lower valve pressure to the reference value given) And they are cheaper and are common on al4 gearboxes.

    These things just need some logical thought, or you'll be that stereotypical person who spends alot of money on their French car and constantly reminded to by jap crap.
    Last edited by Capago; 27th September 2011 at 07:25 AM.
    The wrong oil is better than no oil at all.

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spar View Post
    Hi all, thx for any advice in advance.

    205gti s1.5 - jetronic - recently rebuilt warm 8v
    I dont know a thing about jetronic so this may be totally irrelevent.

    Does the ECU use a coolant sensor to set timing and/or fuel?

    If so, check that it is operating correctly.

    On modern EFI, coolant temp is one of the primary sensors the ecu relies on, so a guess would suggest you check the function of yours if there is a relationship with the tune.



    Jo

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    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capago View Post
    I quoted a stop light switch and solenoids for someone with a 207 with a clunking auto gearbox. Didn't fix the problem, but sold to the customer .........
    Sold me on DIY.


    Jo

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capago View Post
    blue smoke? thats oil mate..
    it was fuel smoking at startup - ECU giving full fuel load not knowing what to do - and the replacement AFM fixed that.

    this also cured its problem of having to advance the ignition heaps to get it to idle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capago View Post
    why would it be the coil, usually they do or dont work (in most applications). youve replaced it so its not it.
    AFAIK one of the common things a coil will do when breaking down internally is to fail when getting hot - especially the bit about when it loses 2 to 3 cylinders if you let it sit when hot.

    (this is also true of wiring, condensors and other electrical bits and bobs)

    Quote Originally Posted by Capago View Post
    These things just need some logical thought, or you'll be that stereotypical person who spends alot of money on their French car and constantly reminded to by jap crap.
    well i aint going to compare my >20 year old 350,000km recycling project i bought for nothing against the last brand new japanese motorcycle capable of never even misfiring for 5 years - lol.

    I honestly appreciate advice, but c'mon, you dont have to assume everyone is a complete turnip and straight off the bat be condescending, especially with your advice having at least 1 wrong thing in it !

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    On modern EFI, coolant temp is one of the primary sensors the ecu relies on, so a guess would suggest you check the function of yours if there is a relationship with the tune.

    Jo
    Ok this sounds plausable - my experience is old school carby and points stuff - and this can be checked for free

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gezza View Post
    Have you tired the ignition amplifier??
    I'll have a look today and try to find how to test this.

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts PugMonkey's Avatar
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    I'm going with ignition amp as well. Had a turbo laser with the same problem. Every time it got warm / hot, it would break down. The ignition module was the cause albeit a different system. If you can get it down the coast, I have a spare you can try.

    Moo
    ....now watch a Peugeot turn into a corner!

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PugMonkey View Post
    If you can get it down the coast, I have a spare you can try.

    Moo
    Cheers Monkey but its a 2 hour drive from where we are... would have liked to see your beasty tho.

    Off to google if its possible to check if its working.

    Shane

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts Capago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    Sold me on DIY.


    Jo
    Yea mate did the work myself, with full printouts from Peugeot Planet 2000 diagnostics, following infoflashes from Peugeot and checking my findings with our senior factory trained techs. So yeah.. Not a bodgy DIY job mate. I'm a 2nd year apprentice pug mechanic.

    what I was getting at was why just say to someone replace x y and z without any sort of explanation. If it was me with this car I'd want to know why I'm replacing something before i even look at my wallet.

    and look "SPAR" got the info about the coils wrong, only in my short 2 years ive dealt with EFI ignition modules and coilpacks, which give open circuits if anything if they fail, never worked on anything pre-99 at work. but as you said you replaced your coil so idk. carbs isnt my thing. and you "sold" the idea to me that it could be the coil or its wiring, you explained it, i understood it, and the idea was "sold" and accepted

    Look, if im wrong, feel free to correct me or whatever, i just provided a logical step-by-step test/s in case you didnt know. Just trying to share my 2 cents
    Last edited by Capago; 27th September 2011 at 08:30 PM.
    The wrong oil is better than no oil at all.

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    When ever I have had problems with ignition amps before, it has always been because the paste has dried out. New tube of heatsink compound from somewhere like Maplins for a few quid. And it's all sorted.
    http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index...howtopic=89674

    now this sounds plausible and is easy to try, i have some arctic silver cpu thermal paste, might be good enough.

    its under the coil, else i was thinking of screwing a little gnu fan onto it also, i have them lying around.

    +1 for a free thing to try

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    Fellow Frogger! gromzx's Avatar
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    TDC sensor can cause similar symptoms when it starts to fail.
    Not shore if the ECU's in the 205's will show the engine fault light if it gets a bad reading from this sensor. It may not have any way to know.
    Sometimes pulling them out and cleaning them can improve the problem temporarily. Try this and see how you go.

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capago View Post
    Look, if im wrong, feel free to correct me or whatever, i just provided a logical step-by-step test/s in case you didnt know. Just trying to share my 2 cents
    well thanks for that but to be honest they seem only logical steps only for a different set of problems than i have.

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts Capago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spar View Post
    well thanks for that but to be honest they seem only logical steps only for a different set of problems than i have.
    to be fair it is a temperature related electrical fault, and its either a sensor or as you said, the ignition system. im not standing in front of your car, you are, and you know alot more about the situation than i do.
    The wrong oil is better than no oil at all.

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capago View Post
    to be fair it is a temperature related electrical fault, and its either a sensor or as you said, the ignition system. im not standing in front of your car, you are, and you know alot more about the situation than i do.
    i dont know jack but i'm just trying to work through it, i can guarantee it isnt just 1 fault tho... lol

    and i'm happy out of 2 fixes 1 was right

    if the ignition amp requires heat dissipation and had paste from the factory then you can place a fair bet after 20 years in an engine bay it isnt going to be in great shape. that could explain the long term getting hot issue, wont solve the immediate *someone cut the ignition* problem which could be as simple as a brittle wire - somewhere.

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts gezza's Avatar
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    After owning 13, 205 gti's and having to replace the ignition amp on 3 of them my money is on that.

    Tech books only give you so much info.

    Real world experience of owning and driving these cars over the last 18 years helps better than any book, although books do help

    I am saying ignition amp with presuming it has had various new parts already with service's Ie dizzy cap, leads, rotor arm plugs etc

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gezza View Post
    I am saying ignition amp with presuming it has had various new parts already with service's Ie dizzy cap, leads, rotor arm plugs etc
    just wow, $3500- of 8v engine install and one of the ignition leads had been routed under the air filter so it sat on the exhaust manifold

    now i'm a bit embarrassed that i didnt notice this and even replace the AFM months ago but...

    I was looking for odd things cause that very respected 205 mechanic had it for 2 x 1 month spats after the engine install and basically told me the harness was stuffed and i need to rewire with an aftermarket ecu.

    well that may be the case in the long run as i havent gotten it sorted yet but... it certainly hasnt gotten the basic things done properly and thats where i am going back to.

    i am going to do everything on my car now (well apart from suspension) - pfft expert my ass

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    btw - i reckon i can rule out the ignition amp overheating (assuming i'm getting the right part, in between the coil and the bracket), i dropped a couple of ice cubes on it when it was hot and it made zero difference

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts gezza's Avatar
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    Lol always the simple things!!!

    Yeah I always service my own cars I know its done right then

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts 504-504-504's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gezza View Post
    Lol always the simple things!!!

    Yeah I always service my own cars I know its done right then
    Same here. I can make the same mistakes the "experts" do and a damn site cheaper.

    Paul

    "A straight is merely the distance between two corners"

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts gezza's Avatar
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    Exactly!!

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