504 oil sump removal
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default 504 oil sump removal

    What is the easiest way to remove the 504 sump? It seems that it is possible to unbolt the motor mounts and push up the engine, but I thought I would check first. We have just built a rally engine and it is showing low oil pressure (around 1.5 bar less than spec across the rev range) so we will start investigating. The oil pressure gauge mounted in the car is electrical but we have confirmed the numbers with a mechanical oil pressure gauge. We will replace the oil filter and check again before we pull the sump but I am not holding my breath, we have been using these filters for all the cars and never had a problem. This is a strange engine, BTW, the oil pump is like that of a 404 and a standard 504 sump will not bolt on it. The head bolts are also smaller diameter and the pistons had very little dome, they were nearly flat. The cam had a P7 or PB7 designation and the head has two round ports. The engine was in great condition when we first got it, we were told that it was being used on a fork lift (!) and had just been rebuilt. We replaced the head with a big valve XN6 and used Wiseco 10.7:1 pistons and Owen-spec Camtech cam and it seems to work really well except for the low oil pressure. We will replace or rebuilt the pump and try again, but I am puzzled; the pump looked nearly new, as did all other parts of the engine. We added two washers to the pump to stiffen the spring and increase oil pressure, perhaps the pump did not like that!

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  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Hi Thanos, In terms of removing the sump there is a fairly recent thread on here about it.

    That said I usually put the car on stands, suspend the engine, either from above or a block across the inner guards in the bonnet area, drop the cross member and then remove the sump from underneath.

    On the oil pressure, check where the electric gauge has been fitted. Geoff Boyd has a similar problem recently and discovered that the aftermarket gauge was fitted into the oil filter housing in the hole the normal slide type sender goes. By removing the slide to do so an oil return galley was exposed allowing oil pressure to escape. I hope that makes sense. Email me if you want more detail.

    Cheers

    Jim

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanos View Post
    What is the easiest way to remove the 504 sump? It seems that it is possible to unbolt the motor mounts and push up the engine, but I thought I would check first. We have just built a rally engine and it is showing low oil pressure (around 1.5 bar less than spec across the rev range) so we will start investigating. The oil pressure gauge mounted in the car is electrical but we have confirmed the numbers with a mechanical oil pressure gauge. We will replace the oil filter and check again before we pull the sump but I am not holding my breath, we have been using these filters for all the cars and never had a problem. This is a strange engine, BTW, the oil pump is like that of a 404 and a standard 504 sump will not bolt on it. The head bolts are also smaller diameter and the pistons had very little dome, they were nearly flat. The cam had a P7 or PB7 designation and the head has two round ports. The engine was in great condition when we first got it, we were told that it was being used on a fork lift (!) and had just been rebuilt. We replaced the head with a big valve XN6 and used Wiseco 10.7:1 pistons and Owen-spec Camtech cam and it seems to work really well except for the low oil pressure. We will replace or rebuilt the pump and try again, but I am puzzled; the pump looked nearly new, as did all other parts of the engine. We added two washers to the pump to stiffen the spring and increase oil pressure, perhaps the pump did not like that!
    The engine isn't one of the 1500 XN variants is it? I think they were named XB5 ?

    These were fitted to commercials and designed to comply with certain French regulations as to capacity.

    These engine were a 45 degree 403 engine AFAIK.

    404 Oil pumps (the three bolt variety) won't fit 504/504 sumps due to the pick up. The 504 pumps fit the 5 main bearing 404 engines and then the 504/505 sumps will fit.

    If the block is designed for the sump with the internal oil return tube from the rear main and you fit 504/505 sump you need to fill the sump with 1/2 litre more oil or the pump tends to starve of oil.

    The 504/505 sumps don't have the return tube. I machined a crescent in the sump to allow unimpeded flow from rear main oil return port into the sump.

    If you compare the 404 sump with a 504/505 all becomes clear.
    The less one interacts with rude, ignorant, critical and argumentative members. The more peaceful life becomes.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    The engine isn't one of the 1500 XN variants is it? I think they were named XB5 ?

    These were fitted to commercials and designed to comply with certain French regulations as to capacity.

    These engine were a 45 degree 403 engine AFAIK.

    404 Oil pumps (the three bolt variety) won't fit 504/504 sumps due to the pick up. The 504 pumps fit the 5 main bearing 404 engines and then the 504/505 sumps will fit.

    If the block is designed for the sump with the internal oil return tube from the rear main and you fit 504/505 sump you need to fill the sump with 1/2 litre more oil or the pump tends to starve of oil.

    The 504/505 sumps don't have the return tube. I machined a crescent in the sump to allow unimpeded flow from rear main oil return port into the sump.

    If you compare the 404 sump with a 504/505 all becomes clear.
    XB5 was based on the 404 XC enginges, nothing to do with 403 engine except for capacity.
    Sounds like you have a Daewoo (made under licence) fork lift truck engine Thanos.
    I have your cams from Camtech and will pick the one from Wade today.
    Graham

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! Doush_504's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pug303 View Post
    Hi Thanos, In terms of removing the sump there is a fairly recent thread on here about it.
    504 oil pan
    Chadi

    1982 504 SR white manual sedan with A/C (257 000 Km)
    2012 308 1.6 VTi Vapor Grey manual H/B (35000 Km)
    1994 405 1.6 white manual sedan (208 000 Km)
    1992 605 SV24 (91 000 Km)
    2005 406 2.0L automatic (Replaced with a 2013 C5)
    1983 505 GR white manual sedan with A/C (170000 Km)

    All since new


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    I carried out a similar job on my 505GTD a couple of years ago and set it up as a photoshow.
    See if this helps.

    http://www.photoshow.com/watch/Ng4Eg6bw

    Hutchie

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hutchie View Post
    I carried out a similar job on my 505GTD a couple of years ago and set it up as a photoshow.
    See if this helps.

    http://www.photoshow.com/watch/Ng4Eg6bw

    Hutchie
    The diesels are quite a different engine to the XN petrol!
    The less one interacts with rude, ignorant, critical and argumentative members. The more peaceful life becomes.

  8. #8
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    My thanks to everybody who responded, I will keep you informed as this unfolds.

    Quote Originally Posted by pug303 View Post
    ...On the oil pressure, check where the electric gauge has been fitted. Geoff Boyd has a similar problem recently and discovered that the aftermarket gauge was fitted into the oil filter housing in the hole the normal slide type sender goes. By removing the slide to do so an oil return galley was exposed allowing oil pressure to escape...
    Thanks, Jim, I will certainly look into that as well before going too far. We have retained the normal sender position because I wanted the warning light to work, I also connected it to a BIG light and a buzzer. I rarely have the time to look at the oil pressure during a stage so I want this extra input to protect the engine. But we adapted the original housing to accept a Toyota sender (too many failures of the standard Peugeot units) so there is a possility that we exposed an oil return galley while we were doing that. I will replace the oil filter housing with a standard unit and take oil pressure with a diagnostic mechanical gauge. We drilled on top of the housing to install the oil temperature and oil pressure senders, I will take and post a photo later today.

    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    ...Sounds like you have a Daewoo (made under licence) fork lift truck engine Thanos.
    ...
    You are a wealth of information, Graham, I did not know about the Daewoo situation. It certanly explains everything we see. I GOT A FRENCH/KOREAN HYBRID! Korean block, sump, crank, pump and conrods and French head (ok... American pistons and valve springs, and OZ copper gasket and reground cam). I am strangely (and unreasonably) annoyed about the Korean content, the thought that the parts were probably made in France and the engines assembled in Korea ALMOST eliminates the discomfort
    Last edited by Thanos; 26th September 2011 at 01:55 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by pug303 View Post
    ...On the oil pressure, check where the electric gauge has been fitted. .. an oil return galley was exposed allowing oil pressure to escape....
    Good call Jim, the sensor was keeping the slider open. We changed the oil filter mount and the oil pressure went way up. Now I have to find a new mounting point for the electrical sensor and a storage place for the new oil pump and dizzy drive I just bought for my Korean hybrid... It's good to have spares.

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