My Peuegot 504 Race car

[Douvrin504]

Hi, this is my first post on the Aussie Frogs, there seems to be a lot of nice guys here who are very talented. I have some French cars, Peugeot 504, R8, Simca 1000 and Simca 1200s. The Peugeot 504 I have, so I have mounted in a Douvrin engine, 2165cc, along with a 604 transmission (BA 10 / 4) and the final drive from a 504 pickup, ratio 4.875.
The engine is mounted twin Weber 45 DCOE, and a reground camshaft, and a machined cylinder heads, extractor 4-1, rebuilt distributor, slightly eased flywheel, 2.25-inch exhaust system with two full-flow silencers mounted far back. Are there more and make the engine such as fitting larger valves and higher compression, and more. Excuse my very bad English, I use google translation,
Uses the car to run on ice and run a upphillclimb with it, cage is mounted, and the car is relieved by plastic windows around, doors and other things are relieved. Would like to have a close ratio gearbox, think it would make a big difference, anyone know?

/Bobby

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[Thanos]

Hi Bobby, welcome to Aussiefrogs.

A close ratio gearbox makes a big difference, unfortunately the gears are no longer available from Peugeot Sport. The problem with having a close ratio gearbox with the rally ratios is that your first gear will be too long for ice and snow so you should move to a longer differential like a 3.89. Building a gearbox will also be expensive, a minimum of 4,000 euro. If you have a good machinist, you can try adapting a six speed gearbox from a Mazda RX8, this will work well with your current set-up. The alternative will be to use a standard gearbox and a long differential like a 5.6. This means that your first gear is just to start the car, then the second gear is almost like first and the second to third is a close ratio. The problem with this is that you have a 4-speed (BA10/4) which will become like a 3-speed and your top velocity will be low, less than 130 km/h. So you will need to buy gears for the diff and a BA10/5. In summary, the three solutions (most to least expensive) are:
1. Get custom gears made for your BA10/4 but with a shorter first gear than Peugeot Sport.
2. Fit a BA10/5 and convert your diff to 5.6
3. Adapt a six-speed from an RX8

Your car sounds very interesting, and yes, there is a lot of extra power available by fitting big valves, high compresiion pistons (or welding the head with aluminum), a bigger cam and moving to 48 mm DCOE's with 42 mm venturis. Also, 2.25" exhaust is too small (our 504 rally cars have 60 mm straight pipes), you should take both silencers off temporarily and see if the car works better.

Post some car photos and a dyno sheet!

[peujohn]

Hi Bobby, and again welcome to Aussiefrogs, the world's best French car discussion forum! As a 504 driver you are especially welcome! We need more 504 drivers here.

I also own a Douvrin-powered 504. You can read more about it in this thread: peujohn's new 504 blog. The information about the 2.2 litre engine is towards the end of the blog.

I look forward to reading and seeing more about your cars.

[Douvrin504]

Thanks Thanos for your welcome, and your ideas. I think a close ratio gearbox (BA 10 / 5) together with a diff of 5.625, would work well for me, the problem is that a close ratio box is expensive, (know about 2x ba 10 / 5 with close ratio here in Sweden, with they cost 5000 euros each) and do not know what you'll find 5.625 diff that should have been available before, have heard with Peugeot, the Court could not help me, someone who knows where to get a diff 5.625? (8X45).
May work well as you Thanos writes with a standard ba 10 / 5 o 5.625 diff.
A cheaper way to go for me than buying a close ratio gearbox ba 10 / 5, perhaps to fit a close ratio gearbox from Volvo 240, which is much cheaper where I live, but I think it would be fun o only use peugeot parts. Transmission of the RX8 can be a good option and explore.
Today has dual weber 45dcoe with 38mm venturis, you probably think you can win some power with 48 DCOE, but is afraid to lose the nice driveability that I have now.
Are also new camshafts to the 2165cc engine, the catcams (catcams.be) that can be worth va o try, they have a wide range of camshafts o choose to Douvrin engine.
The car has not been run on the dyno.
I like to run my 504, the handling is very good in the 504th
Pictures will come later.
/ Bobby

[Douvrin504]

Thanks Peujohn, I have read mkt on your 504 with DOUVRIN engine, very nice car, with good choice of engine, fun to read.
/ Bobby

[Thanos]

...a close ratio box is expensive, (know about 2x ba 10 / 5 with close ratio here in Sweden, with they cost 5000 euros each) .....

I think one is sold by Gert Blomqvist and it will not fir your engine. It is a copy from the works coupe V6 so it will not fit the ZDJ engine. You will need to use the bellhousing from your BA10/4 and also cut and weld your input shaft to the close ratio box, so more than 5000. The other problem is that it has the early safari ratios so your first gear is good to 100 km/h with your current diff. I have the same gearbox in my works 504 V6 coupe with a 4.625 diff and it is very difficult in lower speed rallies.

... do not know ... where to get a diff 5.625? (8X45)...

They are not available, you will have to get a crown wheel and pinion set made by a gear maker. I heard there is one in Northern Greece who is economical and does a good job, but I have not used him personally.

... perhaps to fit a close ratio gearbox from Volvo 240, which is much cheaper where I live, but I think it would be fun o only use peugeot parts. ..

Volvo is almost like Peugeot , think of the PRV engine!

..May work well .... with a standard ba 10 / 5 o 5.625 diff...

Or a BA7/5 if you cannot find a BA10/5. My XN2 504 rally car engine with about 170 bhp is not a problem for the BA7/5

..Today has dual weber 45dcoe with 38mm venturis, ...

I use 45mm DCOE's with 40 venturis in my XN2 504 rally car, they give more power than the 38 mm venturis and driveability is the same. Perhaps you can keep the 45 mm DCOE's and try 40 mm venturis.
I think a dyno tune will be very helpful in getting the most power out of your engine.

...I like to run my 504, the handling is very good ...

YES IT IS!!!!!

[Douvrin504]

My 504 on ice, 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ufGSql7KQo

[Thanos]

My 504 on ice, 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ufGSql7KQo

Very nice, Bobby! I am very interested in your suspension set-up. Are you using a rear anti roll bar? What springs do you use?

[Douvrin504]

Yes Thanos, you're right it's Gert Blomqvist with gearboxes, my ba 10 / 4 that comes from a 604, I had to cut the input shaft, with my angle grinder, and it has worked well.
Okay, I'll use Blomqvist gearbox, which I should have a 5.625 diff for them to work well on my 504.
Strangely interesting that you Thanos writes that there is a guy in Greece who can make the crown wheel o pinion, but there've been a 5.625 diff from Peugeot, should be someone who has a 5,625 diff?
I have both ba10 / 5 and ba7 / 5, I do not know which one fits my car better, but have noticed that BA 7 / 5 is easy, compared to ba10 / 5.
Yes Thanos a xn2 with 170bhp, it seems very good, am curious on your 504.

[Thanos]

Okay, I'll use Blomqvist gearbox,.

Just to be sure we do not have a communication problem, Bobby, I never suggested that you use the Blomqvist gearbox. Nor did I suggest that you do not use it. I think it is risky to buy a gearbox for a lot of money without knowing the torque profile of your car, you may end up with less than you expect.

....Strangely interesting that you Thanos writes that there is a guy in Greece who can make the crown wheel o pinion, but there've been a 5.625 diff from Peugeot, should be someone who has a 5,625 diff?

I am not sure I understand, Bobby. Just to be clear, I cannot find a 5.6 diff from Peugeot, I have a 4.625. I am thinking of having one made, but I am always afraid of custom gear makers. The same man in Greece can take a normal BA7/5 and change it to a close ratio box for around 2000 euro. My XN2 504 has a 4.625 and a normal BA7/5. The best solution would be to convert the BA7/5 to a close ratio but our rallies are long and hard and I am worried about reliability. Having custom 5.6 CWP gears made for the diff is less risky, we can change diffs in 20 minutes during a rally. So not sure what to do, I am just waiting to see how the gears from Greece are performing in other rally cars.

...xn2 with 170bhp, it seems very good, am curious on your 504.

Here are three photos of my 504's: an original (ex Makinen/Todt) works coupe (260 bhp), an XN2 Berline (170 bhp) and an XN2 coupe recce car (170+ bhp). I also have two more V6 coupes in progress a replica of the Makinen/Todt car and an original ex Nicolas, ex Ambrosino V6 works coupe that is being restored to the period safari spec.

Yes, I know I have an addiction problem...

[GRAHAM WALLIS]

My 504 on ice, 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ufGSql7KQo

Good to see a ZDJL being used in competition!
I am building up a 505 GR fitted with ZDJL for use in long distance rallying here in Australia.
The engine has a mild reground camshaft, Megasquirt ECU and light flywheel, I should have it running in a week or two.
I am using the standrd BA7/5, Quaife diff and 4.11 drive, so fairly standard.
A group of us in Australia are fitting upgraded Bilstein suspension with works springs rates as organised by Thanos.
Graham

[Douvrin504]

Thanos, I understand you about, Blomqvist gearbox, agree with you that it will be expensive, and that the result is uncertain.I comes and search for another option.

Peugeot has produced a 5.625 diff (8x45) to 504 and 505
I search a 5.625 differential.
I have 4,875 diff in my car.
Very nice cars you have Thanos
I'll be back with my suspension set up, must stop now

[Thanos]

Peugeot has produced a 5.625 diff (8x45) to 504 and 505
I search a 5.625 differential.
I have 4,875 diff in my car.

Peugeot used 8x45 for the Safari cars and 8x37 for higher speed rallies. Both were 55% LSD. You cannot buy them now from the Peugeot sport catalog. You can find a 8x37 from a USA model 505 STI automatic, but it is only 25-40% LSD. Or you can convert a pick-up LSD to fit a Berline like you did. But if you want the 8x45 CWP it will have to be custom made.

[Douvrin504]

Okay Thanos, only option is to find a 8x45 used, but probably impossible

[Thanos]

Okay Thanos, only option is to find a 8x45 used, but probably impossible

Nothing is impossible, Bobby, maybe somebody in Kenya still has some works spares. But in 11 years of looking I have not been able to find an original 8x45 works diff.

How about some car photos and suspension information?

[Douvrin504]

My 504 model year 1971, diesel, car model code A20. My set-up :
cut diesel oem springs front, anti-roll bar front 27mm (505 Turbo)
604 lower control arms and 504 caster bars . Strut Stag. New holes drilled for the struts, the more camber.
Dual shock absorbers front,no gas. Reinforced chassis front o behind the front axle . Welded at the bulkhead. No braking power.
Steering rack from the 505 Turbo, SteeringWheels 205 gti. no power steering

Rear: Springs 505 turbo (slightly shortened), Bilstein shock absorbers (gas) from Alfa Romeo. Anti-roll bar from the 604 (19mm). Silent blocks the body, removed, welded in place. upper crossbar rubber spacers removed.
6 inch wheels all around, rear wheel modified, the wider track rear. Rear: 1425mm. front 1460mm
More Camber rear.

The engine moved back (122mm) for better weight distribution.
Battery-mounted rear (battery 42kg) no generator.

What are your views on my set-up?
Something I can improve or change, for better handling??

504 is very funny and drive ...

Bobby

[Thanos]

Very interesting, Bobby, thanks for posting.

My 504 model year 1971, diesel, car model code A20. .

All the diesels we got in Greece had rear live axle. Does yours have independent rear suspension?

Dual shock absorbers front,no gas.

Peugeot oil inserts?

Bilstein shock absorbers (gas) from Alfa Romeo..

What model Alfa Romeo?

The engine moved back (122mm) for better weight distribution.
Battery-mounted rear (battery 42kg) no generator.

I have never seen this done before, did you shorten the torque tube?

Also, are you using a very big battery but no alternator? How long can you run on this battery? Is the power that you gain from removing the alternator worth the extra weight from the battery?

What are your views on my set-up?
Something I can improve or change, for better handling??

I have no experience on ice racing, Bobby, so my opinion is of little value. But generally speaking your set-up is extremely similar to what most of us at Aussiefrogs use. My suspension is much more firm than yours (more than double the spring rates), but I am sure that for ice you will want more body roll than we do. Have you ever tried the set-up without a rear anti roll bar? I would think that this would give better traction on ice.

[GRAHAM WALLIS]

[QUOTE=Thanos;987642]Very interesting, Bobby, thanks for posting.



All the diesels we got in Greece had rear live axle. Does yours have independent rear suspension?



The diesels we got in Australia had independant rear suspension but drum brakes.
Graham

[Uffee]

...Strut Stag...

In addition to Thanos's questions...

Stag has more kpi, is this to be able to fit wider rims than 6"?

[Thanos]

In addition to Thanos's questions...

strut stag = strut tower brace?

[Uffee]

strut stag = strut tower brace?

probably makes more sense, I'm not sure the Stag even had struts.

Edit: A bit more research shows the stag had the same suspension as the 2500 sedans (one of which is in my driveway) and it did indeed have struts.

[Thanos]

The diesels we got in Australia had independant rear suspension but drum brakes...

The diesels in Greece were all taxis, basically a 504L (live axle, drum brakes) but with a diesel engine.

[dieselnutjob]

I used to have a UK spec 1978 504 GLD saloon (sedan).
It had independant rear suspension, veloor seats and a sunroof.

[Douvrin504]

Fun to you've read my post about my 504.Min car has independent rear suspension.
There are 504 original oil inserts in the front, along with the oil shocks of the Opel Rekord, which is four shock absorbers in the front.

Rear shocks Bilstein from Alfa Romeo Alfetta, mounted in front of the Alfa. I have shortened torque tube is 122mm, for better weight distribution.

I have driven safely driven over 1 hour at -15 degrees, no problems with battery
It was intended from the beginning that I would run Rallycross with the car, and then want to have much weight in the rear, to get good grip in the start, but it is doubtful whether it is preferable to a large battery in front of a small battery o generator.

I have not tried and run without anti-rollbar, but it might be a good idea to try, or 16mm anti-rollbar? , Thanos thanks for your idea
Have not weighed my car, but believe that my car is lighter than your 504 Thanos, so I may not need such strong springs that you Thanos?

I've driven on gravel with 504, including gravel mixed with bitumen.
My car has struts tower brace

[Thanos]

...it is doubtful whether it is preferable to a large battery in front of a small battery o generator...

I have not tried and run without anti-rollbar, but it might be a good idea to try, or 16mm anti-rollbar? ,

....Have not weighed my car, but believe that my car is lighter than your 504 Thanos, so I may not need such strong springs that you Thanos?

Interesting modifications, Bobby, but we are only allowed to use homologated items for FIA rallies.

We are using a battery in the back and an 90 amp alternator, this covers us fully.

My car weighs 1162 kg (standard factory weight for the series 504 Ti is 1260 kg). An all-polyester 504 rallied by Neyret in Banama weighed just under 1000 kg so yours is 1000 kg minimum; so your springs should be around 10% softer at the most. Normally, the minimum spring rate for gravel is double the standard factory rates. For the 504 than means 138 lbs/inch fronts, 400 lbs rears. It is very interesting that these are exactly the rates for the group 2 504 Safari cars. The 504 V6 coupes used 180 front and 550 rear for the 1980 Acropolis rally (very rough high speed gravel). Mine are even stiffer I used as much as 325 lbs/inch front and 550 lbs/inch rear, depending on the event. I have never used less than 175 front and 400 rear. From what you said I calculate that yours are around 110 front, 270 rear, for sure too soft for gravel or bitumen and especially rallycross. As I said before I have no experience on ice but handling in the rain is excellent. We always have better results in wet rallies because it is easier to catch the more powerful cars. (If you do rallycross you for sure need the 5.6 diff, the 504 is not too quick from the starting grid)

I get a lot of rear wheel lift on my Berline with the 19 mm ARB, I expect you do too. You may want to unblolt one end of your ARB and mount a camera on the rear fender for before and after video. The works coupe had a 16mm rear ARB and I changed it to 18mm. Better cornering but more wheel lift and a LOT of lift throttle oversteer, so I may go back to 16 mm.