PRV crank pulley question
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  1. #1
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    Default PRV crank pulley question

    I tried to set the timing on my 604. The timing marks are so way off that I thank someone must have put the pulley on without the woodruff key.
    So the pulley is currently useless to time the engine.
    So I need to find TDC, and that means I need to be able to get a spanner on the crank pulley to move the engine around while I poke a plastic rod or something down a spark plug hole.

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    Eventually I'll pull the radiator and get the pulley off and do the job properly, but for now, can anyone tell me what size of swan neck spanner I need to buy to turn the crank pulley? The cooling fan and cowling is too close to try a socket.

    Is it 35mm?
    Last edited by dieselnutjob; 3rd September 2011 at 09:18 PM. Reason: instant notification

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dieselnutjob View Post
    I tried to set the timing on my 604. The timing marks are so way off that I thank someone must have put the pulley on without the woodruff key.
    So the pulley is currently useless to time the engine.
    So I need to find TDC, and that means I need to be able to get a spanner on the crank pulley to move the engine around while I poke a plastic rod or something down a spark plug hole.

    Eventually I'll pull the radiator and get the pulley off and do the job properly, but for now, can anyone tell me what size of swan neck spanner I need to buy to turn the crank pulley? The cooling fan and cowling is too close to try a socket.

    Is it 35mm?
    I know the 504 and 505 pulley nuts are 35mm, so it's better than even odds it's the same.

    FWIW the 505 pulley on my engine has two notches in it , one at correct timing and the other around 180 degrees out. Have you checked for multiple markings?
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  3. #3
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    being a carby PRV it has two timing marks. One is timed off No 1 and the other off No 6. The engine runs well with both markers at about 50 deg advance. It I try to retard it the engine quits at about 20 deg advance and won't run.

    Therefore I think that the pulley has been refitted incorrectly.

    The only way to verify it is to measure it but that means turning the engine with a spanner.

  4. #4
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    35mm works on mine (1 3/8" works too)

    Have fun,

    Rob.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    if the key is missing you are better off pulling the radiator out and getting everything correct otherwise you are going to end up with a stuffed crank

    odds are the key is in the sump
    3 x '78 604 SL

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    Odds are the pulley is spun. Mark it with chalk, give it a few revs then have another look.

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default Pulley..

    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo View Post
    if the key is missing you are better off pulling the radiator out and getting everything correct otherwise you are going to end up with a stuffed crank

    odds are the key is in the sump

    As per the above.
    The woodruff key on the PRV crank can be a bugger to keep in place when fitting the pulley.
    To prevent the key shifting I would slightly burr the keyway in the crank. Just enough to locate and secure the key.
    Additionally I would file the opening of the pulley keyway to allow it to "start" without pushing out the key.

    To undo the pulley nut and while no one was looking I would set up the socket and bar bracing it against something solid then hit the starter. [coil lead disconnected!]
    To undo the pulley nut I used a 3/4" drive 35 mm socket with an old 1/2" drive socket welded to the side in piggyback fashion. This permitted access to the nut.
    With the radiator etc removed a rattle gun can be used.
    Last edited by Wildebeest; 3rd September 2011 at 07:46 PM. Reason: stuff

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo View Post
    otherwise you are going to end up with a stuffed crank
    damn and blast

    I wanted to just get it running so that I can get it through an MOT and start using it

    now it sounds like I'll have to do the job properly

    Do you guys think that when I pull the pulley off I'll find the woodruff key inside?

    also, yes I can undo the bolt by putting a socket n t-bar on it and flicking the starter, but how do I torque it up again afterwards? It's an automatic so I can't just leave it in gear. I could use a rattle gun up to a point but I suppose I need something to grip the pulley to stop the engine turning whilst I get a torque wrench on the bolt.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dieselnutjob View Post
    damn and blast

    I wanted to just get it running so that I can get it through an MOT and start using it

    now it sounds like I'll have to do the job properly

    Do you guys think that when I pull the pulley off I'll find the woodruff key inside?

    also, yes I can undo the bolt by putting a socket n t-bar on it and flicking the starter, but how do I torque it up again afterwards? It's an automatic so I can't just leave it in gear. I could use a rattle gun up to a point but I suppose I need something to grip the pulley to stop the engine turning whilst I get a torque wrench on the bolt.
    you will need to take the sump off, odds on the key will be in there, on the off chance it isn't let me know

    as for the pulley just do it up with a rattle gun

    it's all i have ever done and have never had one come loose, in fact they tend to self tighten over time

    there really is no way the pulley can be out of wack in regards to the timing mark unless the timing mark is way out of wack

    if you can take a pic of the front of the engine as it is now
    3 x '78 604 SL

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    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  10. #10
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    Now I feel stupid.
    It's only looking at the photo I realise that there is another timing mark that I hadn't noticed before, on the rear most edge of the pulley. I was using the mark that has paint on it.
    Unbelievable that I only noticed when I looked at the photo on the computer screen.

    I was wondering what could pugrambo want with a photo? but took it anyway.




  11. #11
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    please can someone clarify

    in the pic below 2 is TDC and 1 is 10 deg advance, so I disconnect the vacuum from the distributer advance and block it, and then time the engine until my strobe light illumates mark 3 pointing at mark 1?


  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by dieselnutjob View Post
    Now I feel stupid.
    It's only looking at the photo I realise that there is another timing mark that I hadn't noticed before, on the rear most edge of the pulley. I was using the mark that has paint on it.
    Unbelievable that I only noticed when I looked at the photo on the computer screen.

    I was wondering what could pugrambo want with a photo? but took it anyway.



    thank you

    it seems you answered it all yourself
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  13. #13
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dieselnutjob View Post
    please can someone clarify

    in the pic below 2 is TDC and 1 is 10 deg advance, so I disconnect the vacuum from the distributer advance and block it, and then time the engine until my strobe light illumates mark 3 pointing at mark 1?

    yes

    and then put light on plug 6 and check with second mark to set second set of points, now that you have found the marks
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  14. #14
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    I spent maybe three hours trying to time this thing up today. I think I probably got it good enough to drive to the MOT but it's not perfect.

    Firstly the engine doesn't keep a contant RPM at idle and as it hunts up and down the timing moves around (yes I had the advance capsule disconnected).

    Secondly, these engines are timed by twisting the distributor until cyl 1 times correctly, and then altering dwell angle of one of the points (it has two) until the other bank times up. The right hand points gap can be adjusted via an external screw for this purpose.

    The trouble is that as the screw is tightened closing the points that works okay, but if it is loosened the points don't open up again unless you open up the distributer and shove over the plate with a screwdriver. It seems that something is sticking inside. Also the adjuster screw has some slight serrations, presumably to stop is turning by itself, this means that as you get near the points close up as the screw clicks over a serration but don't open up again as the screw falls into the valley on the other side. The result is that I got the two banks timed to within about 2 degrees of each other. One more 1/6 turn of the screw which is one click took me from -2 to +2.

    To have another go I would have to loosen the screw right off, push it over with a screwdriver and start again (for the third time). Nuts to that.

    Anyway I now have both banks timed to within maybe 3 degrees of where they are meant to be (10 deg advanced). Bank A has dwell angle spot on at 75 deg whilst B is a bit out of spec at 60 deg.

    I'm sure it's good enough for now.

  15. #15
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    standard timing should be closer to 12 deg but that's ok

    when you are playing with the external adjuster put pressure on it so you are in effect pushing the screw when you are trying to open the gap

    this pushes on the points as there is no real captive point in the dissy for the points other than the points themselves
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  16. #16
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    the adjuster screw pulls on a square nut that has hooks on it that go into a hole in the plate that the points are on.
    if you push on the screw it just makes the hooks loose rather than actually pushing the plate
    maybe with time and vibration the slack will get taken up and it will drift from +2 back to 0...

  17. #17
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    Just in case you don't know, life is a deal easier if you install electronic ignition from a Volvo 760. Timing's just set and forget after that. Dizzy, coil and control box cost me about $80 at the wrecker's in the early '90s. Shouldn't be too hard to find??

    Have fun,

    Rob.

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