504/505/604 - Big Brake Kit
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default 504/505/604 - Big Brake Kit

    Hi all,

    I thought i would do a write up of the big brake package, I've been working on for the 72' 504 TI of mine.

    The basics of the kit are:
    - 292mm Rotor (28mm thick)
    - Twin piston Holden VT calipers
    - Custom rotor hats
    - Custom brake lines
    - Hi-Temp pads to suit VT calipers

    In comparison to the standard setup of a 504 which is:
    - 272mm rotor (12mm thick)
    - Single piston
    - Limited Hi-Temp / Performance pads

    The kits is design to bolt up to all the factory mounts and fit under the factory 15" wheel with out any modifications.

    Here is a couple of current photo's (still working on it)




    - DBA 292mm Rotor



    - Custom Hats



    - All bolted up



    - With VT caliper




    - Difference between 504 and VT commodore.


    Still a little bit of work to go, and ill have more details on all the parts later on.

    once the brake upgrade is completed and test, i will probably be making some kits up for a couple of the guys in the car club, so if you have some interest, let me know.

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    Regards Michael
    Last edited by Mike L; 19th August 2011 at 10:46 PM.
    1972 504 Ti

  2. #2
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Have you worked out the weight difference over the original setup?

    I know the aluminium Commodore calipers are probably no heavier than the cast iron originals, but those discs look heavy.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coup - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts Pugnut403's Avatar
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    The main reason for a big brake upgrade is to increase the thermal mass of the discs to help delay the onset of fade.
    This looks like a good option, but has the calculation of brake system gain been done so they keep the original front to rear balance?
    If the system gain is within a few percent of original hen balance should not be affected but fade resistance, pad life, and brake feel should be significantly improved.
    Pugs Rule!

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  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! Uffee's Avatar
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    Top work.

    I have a question about the top hats, are they 'off the shelf' items in that the only customisation is drilling the 4 holes? Or are they completely custom in that offsets have been chosen to match the caliper mounting on the strut so an intermediate caliper bracket isn't required?
    504 GL Coupe '73 Silver
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  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    Have you worked out the weight difference over the original setup?

    I know the aluminium Commodore calipers are probably no heavier than the cast iron originals, but those discs look heavy.
    Checked the weights tonight, there is an increase in weight over the factory but not by much.

    Standard '72 504Ti:

    Rotor: 4.8kg
    Caliper: 3.2kg

    Total: 8Kg

    504 VT kit:

    Rotor: 6.9kg
    Caliper: 4kg

    Total: 10.9kg

    So only an increase of 3.9kg each side, which i think is acceptable in-relation to the increase is braking power and efficiency.

    This looks like a good option, but has the calculation of brake system gain been done so they keep the original front to rear balance?
    At current, its not something that i have finished working out, but i can always adjust the rear compensator to suit.


    I have a question about the top hats, are they 'off the shelf' items in that the only customisation is drilling the 4 holes? Or are they completely custom in that offsets have been chosen to match the caliper mounting on the strut so an intermediate caliper bracket isn't required?
    The top hats are completely custom, I had the made from scratch, (as design/engineering is my profession.) I have designed them with all the offsets required.

    There is a spacer required for the caliper to clear the 15" wheel, but this is only 5mm thick. This is due to the taper inside the 505 15" wheel, in which if your 15" wheel is not perfectly round it will rub.
    1972 504 Ti

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! Rally's Avatar
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    I would be interested in a pair of the hats and discs. Can you machine another set for me ?
    However I dont like the twin piston holden caliper , have you looked at any other caliper options ?
    How do you mount the twin piston caliper?

    Andy
    Peugeot 504 Rally car V6
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  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Sorry for not getting back to you sooner Andy.

    Can you machine another set for me ?
    Getting another set machined up is not a problem as Leon is after a set as well. but i am hesitant at the moment to commit until i have tested it all on my car. i don't want to send something out that is not tested.

    However I dont like the twin piston holden caliper , have you looked at any other caliper options ?
    i haven't looked at other caliper, as cost for me will be the prohibitive for a set of Alcons or Ap's. but if either of the manufacturers make them for the VT with the 292mm rotor, then they should fit (rim clearance is close it the VT caliper, 3mm to the taper in the rim and 10mm for the rest.

    How do you mount the twin piston caliper?
    the twin piston caliper mounts straight up to the factory Peugeot mounts. the hole spacing is 76mm and both use a M12 bolt.

    it is one of the reason i have headed this way with the kit, as it all bolts up with out any modifications.

    i will hopefully get to finish it off this weekend and ill take heaps of better photos.

    mike
    1972 504 Ti

  8. #8
    Tadpole
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    Interested!! Please keep me in the loop once you've given them a run.. Sounds like a neat set-up.

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! Rally's Avatar
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    Please keep mew posted as I am keen to get a pair of hats once you are happy with the design.

    Andy
    Peugeot 504 Rally car V6
    Peugeot 504 LTI
    Peugeot 504 Ti
    Citroen SM
    Citroen Light 15
    Peugeot 406 SV 5 speed
    Peugeot 307 Wagon
    Toyota Land Criuser V8 Super charged ( to tow the rally car )
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  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! FedGrapes's Avatar
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    I've read this thread with great interest, and love the workmanship on the custom hat!

    Would this upgrade be worthwhile for a road based 504? I currently have stock discs on each wheel, and the 14 inch steel rims. I'm strongly considering getting 15inch mag rims from a 505.

    This upgrade increases braking power, increases service life; does it also give lower ongoing servicing costs due to readily available parts?

    Cheers for any knowledge imparted!

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Interested to see how these will stack up to my volve 4 pots and 604 discs.

    Hell I can't even remember if they are 4 pots...
    Lets just say we have a few pugs about!

  12. #12
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FedGrapes View Post
    I've read this thread with great interest, and love the workmanship on the custom hat!

    Would this upgrade be worthwhile for a road based 504? I currently have stock discs on each wheel, and the 14 inch steel rims. I'm strongly considering getting 15inch mag rims from a 505.

    This upgrade increases braking power, increases service life; does it also give lower ongoing servicing costs due to readily available parts?

    Cheers for any knowledge imparted!
    Standard 504 brakes are really good. Mike has done this upgrade because he races his 504. He has also turbocharged the engine so better brakes are in order!
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  13. #13
    1000+ Posts Pugnut403's Avatar
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    There would be benefits on a road car too....
    I would imagine pads are cheaper than Pug ones and caliper rebuilds etc too.
    If you are going to tow, the increase thermal mass will keep fade at bay for longer and any increase in pad area prolongs replacement intervals.
    The upgrade should not actually make the brakes any more powerful as doing do will upset the front rear balance and also I'd it's possible to lock up your wheels on a good surface there's no point in more power, but better feel, pad life, rotor life, fade resistance, Are all worth having.
    Pugs Rule!

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  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! Rally's Avatar
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    Mike L
    I have had a closer look at your pictures and notice that the disc is mounted on the inboard side of the hat , is that the the correct position for all the offsets to line up as it makes changeing the disc a wheel bearing off job ( like the origional 504 setup ).

    I would have thought that the disc should be on the outside to make servicing easier.


    Have you thought about making a simalar alloy hat to suit the rear , as I am concerned that with a much better package at the front that the rears will not be up to the task !( rally cars tend to run more rear brake to assist turn in)

    Waiting in anticipation !

    Andy
    Peugeot 504 Rally car V6
    Peugeot 504 LTI
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  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rally View Post
    ...as I am concerned that with a much better package at the front that the rears will not be up to the task !( rally cars tend to run more rear brake to assist turn in)
    Andy, I am surprised you are looking for better braking, my 504's with 604 front brakes stop on a dime. Get really good EBC yellowstuff pads, an oversized master cylinder, a brake prop valve and the right diameter piping and the 504 stops like an F1. Pagid blue would be the next step up, not worth the expense in my opinion, but the stopping power is amazing.

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Hi all, thanks for the feedback so far.

    Its about time of an update and some reply's/questions.


    Better quality photo of the rotor, hat and hub.



    Front brake lines: -3 S/S braided lines


    The alignment of the rotor/caliper, notice the 5mm shim on the caliper brackets (this is required to clear the wheel)



    The back side of the rotor, showing how the caliper mounts to the factory peugeot caliper mounts



    Brake assembly all bolted up inc, pads



    Final assembly...

    I currently have a cheap pair of pads in there just to bed in the rotor, once that is done i will put in some hi temp pads.

    i did manage to have a quick test drive before i pulled the engine out (another story). The brakes feel good, easily managed to lock up the wheels. With a larger master cylinder there will be more feel to them. Do once i have changed that, i will let you all know.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rally View Post
    I have had a closer look at your pictures and notice that the disc is mounted on the inboard side of the hat , is that the the correct position for all the offsets to line up as it makes changeing the disc a wheel bearing off job ( like the origional 504 setup ).

    I would have thought that the disc should be on the outside to make servicing easier.
    I did look at the idea of using a top had that sat over the hub face, but with the chosen rotor. it was not going to be possible, as the of the bolt pattern for the rotor is is smaller then the external of the hub face.

    If we were to go to a 330mm we might be able to get over the hub face, as the internal of the rotor should fit over, but we would need to run 17" wheels to clear rotor/caliper.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rally View Post
    Have you thought about making a simalar alloy hat to suit the rear , as I am concerned that with a much better package at the front that the rears will not be up to the task !( rally cars tend to run more rear brake to assist turn in)
    i have thought about doing the rears, have haven't had a chance to look at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanos View Post
    an oversized master cylinder
    what master cylinder do you use?
    I was going to use a 505 GTI master, as i measured it up at 20.5mm bore, compared to the late 504 of 19mm.
    Last edited by Mike L; 12th October 2011 at 12:44 PM.
    1972 504 Ti

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike L View Post
    ...what master cylinder do you use?
    I was going to use a 505 GTI master, as i measured it up at 20.5mm bore, compared to the late 504 of 19mm.
    I don't think it is going to be enough, Mike, 20.5mm is what I use with the 604 caliper. I think your brake pedal travel will be too much, this will kill heel-and-toe in no time. You can try using smaller diameter piping for the brakes to reduce travel but this will increase pedal effort. I think you have to balance the sytem properly or you may end up negating whatever benefiits you are hoping to achieve with this conversion. I also think that the rears will not need additional help. As it is the rears are very strong, we are using a brake prop valve to cut power and keep the tail from doing its thing.
    I am guessing you are planning on a track car, then there may be a benefit to this conversion as they are sure to show very little fade, but I would for sure istall a brake prop valve and get it adjusted after the pads and rotors have been warmed up well. The springs look a bit soft for track work IMHO.

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Nice work Mike. I think VT's use a quick fill master cylinder with a primary piston of a larger diameter to move the pads out then switch to the small diameter high pressure piston to get the line pressure up, I haven't had any experience with them, just read about it .

    Cheers
    Graham Lewis

  19. #19
    Member signwilson's Avatar
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    was this conversion ever completed and how well did it function it sounds good. My old 505 wagon brakes leave a bit to be desired

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