505 GTi engine in a 504
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    505 GTi engine in a 504

    Has anyone out there converted a 504 to 505 GTi running gear? Interested to know how they fit, what major problems wiuld be encountered etc.

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  2. #2
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Haakon:
    Has anyone out there converted a 504 to 505 GTi running gear? Interested to know how they fit, what major problems wiuld be encountered etc.
    Roland Pym from Dural (NW Sydney outskirts) did it a while ago (maybe a decade or so ago).

    Andy Crane from Gosford currently has a 504 rally car with all 505 GTI running gear.

    Having done the opposite swap in my 505, I'd say that apart from some work with the wiring loom, it's a pretty straight swap.

    Dave

    <small>[ 15 May 2003, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: davemcbean ]</small>
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  3. #3
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    Why bother?
    The 505 GTI would have to have the most uninspiring engine ever made!
    Dave has done things the right way around.
    Graham Wallis

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    GRAHAM WALLIS:
    Why bother?
    The 505 GTI would have to have the most uninspiring engine ever made!
    Dave has done things the right way around.
    Graham Wallis
    How so? I've had several of these motors in Renaults, and I love 'em! Torquey, revvy and efficient (proper all alloy and OHC), and 2 litres of Renault Douvrin pulls a lot harder than 2 litres of pushrod Pug motor. Are Douvrins detuned for use in Pugs or something?
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  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! DTwo's Avatar
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    Haakon:
    GRAHAM WALLIS:
    Why bother?
    The 505 GTI would have to have the most uninspiring engine ever made!
    Dave has done things the right way around.
    Graham Wallis
    How so? I've had several of these motors in Renaults, and I love 'em! Torquey, revvy and efficient (proper all alloy and OHC), and 2 litres of Renault Douvrin pulls a lot harder than 2 litres of pushrod Pug motor. Are Douvrins detuned for use in Pugs or something?
    I don't know what the deal was there either...

    The Renault variants were all much perkier than the Peugeot's.....

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    Try a 2.2, like you I think the 2 litre Douvrin is OK, particularly in a nice light Fuego.
    Hell, the early 505 STIs (2 litre Douvrin)were capable of sub 17 seconds for the 400 metres. I remember an RACV road test of a GTI auto which measured this at over 21 seconds, the RACV advised people not to buy the car as it was dangerously slow!
    European testers described the 2.2 version in ultimate spec as fitted to the Safrane as feeble.
    Renault have built much better engines than this.
    Graham Wallis

  7. #7
    nJm
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    While my experience is limited, I'd have to say the 2 GTis I've driven (both auto) felt a lot more torquey than my OHV 505, however at the same time they felt more lethargic - less willing to rev away (and my car has no performance mods at all). For cruising with an auto, I can see why the 2.2 OHC is a better choice than the 2L OHV, however for outright performance I don't think there is much between them.

    *keep in mind I'm comparing a 5spd XN engined car to a 3spd ZDJL car.
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  8. #8
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    I agree wholeheartedly with Graham on this.

    The 2.2 OHC engine often seems an uninspiring drive compared to a "good" square port 504/505 2 litre pushrod engine, despite its superior torque. I think the outright performance is very similar, but the 2.2 lacks a special something, which I can't quite put my finger on. There's something bland about it and it runs out of puff very early for an OHC engine (probably due to the long stroke and short conrods of the 2.2).

    On first impressions, driving the two engines once each, back to back, I'd probably go for the 2.2 OHC, but after driving each engine hard through varied terrain over a much longer period of time, there's a certain willing character of the old 2 litre pushrod engine which wins me over, which the 2.2 OHC engine is lacking.

    It's a pity they didn't design the OHC engine as a 2.2 from the beginning, with bigger bores and a shorter stroke, instead of just stroking a 2 litre engine.

    Dave
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  9. #9
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    I have driven one 505 GTi, a manual leaded version. The engine was totally uninspiring and unwilling to rev. I much prefer the nature of the 2 litre OHV in my late 504.

    John
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  10. #10
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Frankly, I can't believe how willing my TI engine is to rev. That it isn't producing as much power as I think it should is another matter, it's just turbine-like in revs.

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    i think the grearing from the too pugs must help mold this allusion too.. the TI i had seemed defently quicker out of 1st up to 3rd.. compared to my STI.. felt a whole whole whole lot quicker.. taller gears.. felt heaps better..

    but my STI freely revs more Past the Point where teh Ti starts to get lathargic..

    Anyonw have a 5sp box mounted to a TI engine??

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  12. #12
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Of course... a couple of them...

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Must be the manifolds that Peugeot use to cater for the engine being lean ed overto the right - the Renault version (leaned over to left) with its different manifolds (including an exhaust that is set up like extractors as it has more room to spread out as it were) is plenty revvy and quite responsive (especially when coolant temp sensors are making the computer run the right mixture )
    I was also under the impression that the GTi motor had the most aggressive cam of all the Douvrins?
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  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! DTwo's Avatar
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    Haakon:

    I was also under the impression that the GTi motor had the most aggressive cam of all the Douvrins?
    Yeah, supposedly but it can be pretty hard sometimes to tell the difference between the sti and gtis in performance

    It's such a shame....the 505 would have been a much different car (ie not such a plodder) if only it had been given a "great" engine....something smooth and gutsy.....maybe the overseas turbos and v6s were better.....

  15. #15
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Haakon:
    the Renault version (leaned over to left) with its different manifolds (including an exhaust that is set up like extractors as it has more room to spread out as it were
    Those lucky devils in France got 505 GTIs and STIs with better exhaust manifolds like the Renaults, but in RHD form they don't clear the steering column. This is part of the reason we never got a 130hp GTI here, and is also the reason why the leaded GTI cam is a bit lazy down low (it's not matched to the RHD exhaust manifold).

    Dave
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    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
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  16. #16
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    So logic answers the question...

  17. #17
    Gus
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    Those lucky devils in France got 505 GTIs and STIs with better exhaust manifolds like the Renaults, but in RHD form they don't clear the steering column.
    Very interesting.

    Has anyone had extractors made up that do fit, or is it an impossibility?

    I'm v. surprised at this seeing as the exhaust on the STI/GTIs is not exactly small, the bores are much larger than the 505GR "big bore" exhaust and the 2-into-1 downpipe is pretty fat, too (especially compared with a GR.) Admittedly, the length of the 4-part section is quite short, though.

    Is the problem with tuning/lengths, or is this exhaust actually restrictive?

  18. #18
    nJm
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    Did the GR get a different exaughst at any stage between 1980 and 1983? Reason I ask is my end pipe is far bigger than most other 505 GRs I've seen. I measured it ages ago, I think it is either 2" or 2 1/4". Actually, when the car is idling and in an enclosed space (eg between two fences) my car's exaughst sounds just like the GTi's I've been in. Same metallic reasonance, if that makes sense.
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  19. #19
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    The first of the GRs had the big bore manifold and a longer twin-pipe section of their engine pipe.

    When the sandwich block was inserted between the head and the manifold (1981, I guess...) for further emission restrictions (and why didn't these apply to the last of the 504 wagons with the same engine? Or was there different carburetion as well? Dave? Graham?) there wasn't enough room for the bigger manifold and the smaller one went back on.

  20. #20
    Gus
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    Did the GR get a different exaughst at any stage between 1980 and 1983? Reason I ask is my end pipe is far bigger than most other 505 GRs I've seen.
    Even though I'm sure Ray is right about the change, most old 505s will have been in the pipeline for an exhaust replacement by now (my original engine downpipe cracked in half a few months ago due to rust and metal fatigue, I'm holding out on my rear muffler even though I think it leaks a bit.) The original rear mufflers, on the STIs at least, use a two muffler system plummed together by three parallel pipes. Very unique looking.

    The first of the GRs had the big bore manifold and a longer twin-pipe section of their engine pipe.
    Right, that makes sense now. My friend had an 82 GR, which I ended up wrecking, and he heard from numerous sources ("You'll have the 505 'big bore' manifold"). He ended up swapping the motor into a 504 to replace a 1.8L, and we examined the manifold and thought "These guys are getting pretty excited over a pretty ordinary manifold, it's practically identical to the 1.8L one."

    I now realise that it wasn't the big bore you describe.

    wink

  21. #21
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    The only advantage of that last change was that it meant the head had longer exhaust manifold studs.

    Now, if this was when the change to the hard valve seats also occurred, it would be useful to know.

    Of course, if it's been retrofitted to another car, they'd have been changed again.

    But wasn't there something about an obstruction in the port in the casting?

    Dave had better put us right on all that...

  22. #22
    nJm
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    The original rear mufflers, on the STIs at least, use a two muffler system plummed together by three parallel pipes. Very unique looking.
    This is what I have. I've seen under some other GRs, and they don't have this.
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  23. #23
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    Ray,
    After much searching through the parts list I concluded the hardened seats were fitted at the same time as the pulse air anti pollution system and the return to the small manifold. Maybe to combat extra heat generated by the pulse air system? This was only for Australian cars, the European cars didn't get hardened seats until later and the US always had them.

    Graham Wallis

  24. #24
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    You have to wonder...

    The cost difference can't have been 10c a head, surely if they had to stick them in for the US they should have put them in all of them.

    So what about the late wagon heads then? They didn't have the pulse air system...

  25. #25
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Gus:
    Is the problem with tuning/lengths, or is this exhaust actually restrictive?
    I think the problem is with the tuning lengths. The LHD STIs had a manifold like the Renault Feugo and I've read an article which implied the French GTI had some fancier extractors to match the camshaft, but I'm not sure what they looked like.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

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