Replacement cylinder head 205 GTI 1.9 (1992)?
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    Default Replacement cylinder head 205 GTI 1.9 (1992)?

    Hi all, I recently bought a 1992 205 GTI which came with the nasty surprise of a broken cylinder head. Does anyone here have a spare they would be willing to sell? Or if not, can anyone recommend a place I could source one from? Maybe an international parts place that ships internationally? ...the mechanic who has the car at the moment isn't hopeful of finding one so I thought I would give it a crack before losing all hope! It doesn't need to be refurbished, just complete with no defects.

    You time is most appreciated,

    cheers,

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny G View Post
    Hi all, I recently bought a 1992 205 GTI which came with the nasty surprise of a broken cylinder head. Does anyone here have a spare they would be willing to sell? Or if not, can anyone recommend a place I could source one from? Maybe an international parts place that ships internationally? ...the mechanic who has the car at the moment isn't hopeful of finding one so I thought I would give it a crack before losing all hope! It doesn't need to be refurbished, just complete with no defects.

    You time is most appreciated,

    cheers,

    John
    Get one off a late series 1 405, I'll have a look when I'm at at Centre Road Wreckers this afternoon and report back.
    Graham

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    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    What colour is it?
    Heads are not to hard to find. Youve come to the right place to look!

    Cam
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
    91 205 Si
    87 205 GTi Race Car
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/res...-race-car.html

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny G View Post
    Hi all, I recently bought a 1992 205 GTI which came with the nasty surprise of a broken cylinder head. Does anyone here have a spare they would be willing to sell? Or if not, can anyone recommend a place I could source one from? Maybe an international parts place that ships internationally? ...the mechanic who has the car at the moment isn't hopeful of finding one so I thought I would give it a crack before losing all hope! It doesn't need to be refurbished, just complete with no defects.

    You time is most appreciated,

    cheers,

    John
    Consider yourself lucky. Or perhaps check the engine block too. I found mine was cracked.

    If you come stuck, I have a spare DFZ head.
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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny G View Post
    ...the mechanic who has the car at the moment isn't hopeful of finding one
    You have chosen the wrong mechanic unfortunately. As said, there's plenty around in either 205 Si, late 205GTi, 405 or BX Citroen.

    What does a broken cylinder head mean?

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    [QUOTE=cam85;960819]What colour is it?

    Dark green with a green interiour, in tired condition, my hope was to refresh it back up to a hint of its former glory

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    You have chosen the wrong mechanic unfortunately. As said, there's plenty around in either 205 Si, late 205GTi, 405 or BX Citroen.
    It is with Alpine Affair, althouh I'm started to get a bit frustrated. The car has been there over 3 weeks now. Collin originally said it would be difficult because most heads 'are in engines'. I called up today only to find out Collin who was handling it has gone on holiday, and won't be back until next Friday. The guy I spoke to yesterday seemed nice, I asked him where the car was at and he didn't know, he said they had been busy and Collin had been looking after it. He said a 2nd hand cylinder head would be about $500, then
    about $1500 - $2000 to fit it including a cambelt, waterpump etc. Does that sound about right? might I be better off finding the head myself do you think supplying it to them?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    What does a broken cylinder head mean?
    Apparently, the engine was rebuilt about 5 years ago, the rebuilder used a wrong size bolt or over tightened it or something and the back of the cylinder head hit it taking a massive chunk out of the back, right where the oil is fed into the cylinder for the seals. Hence it is leaking oil badly. The guy I bought the car from told me it would only need to have the cam seals replaced. Guess I got duped!
    Last edited by Johnny G; 11th June 2011 at 03:46 AM.

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    1000+ Posts gezza's Avatar
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    1500 to 2000 to fit??!!!

    That sounds very very expensive to me tbh

    I would say between 750 to 1200 max......

    Is it the green one that was on here for sale?

    Tbh I would try one of the guys off here who is local to fit it...

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny G View Post

    [...]

    Apparently, the engine was rebuilt about 5 years ago, the rebuilder used a wrong size bolt or over tightened it or something and the back of the cylinder head hit it taking a massive chunk out of the back, right where the oil is fed into the cylinder for the seals. Hence it is leaking oil badly. The guy I bought the car from told me it would only need to have the cam seals replaced. Guess I got duped!
    That explanation doesn't make sense. Try to clarify or post some pictures. Remember we have not seen your engine, and we're not mind readers. A clear explanation might make the difference between us being able to help or not.

    The wrong size bolt doesn't sound like anything. The oil gallery you talk about should be in the block not the head.

    The closest I can think of is using the headbolt at the back of the head without its very thick spacer which would destroy the block, not the head. Form what I read about this engine (and previous experience with other similar problems) this is a common mistake, as is fitting the camshaft bearing caps in the wrong place which breaks them on this engine.

    Have you actually looked at the problem area?
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 11th June 2011 at 06:12 PM.
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    [QUOTE=Johnny G;960932]
    Quote Originally Posted by cam85 View Post
    What colour is it?

    Dark green with a green interiour, in tired condition, my hope was to refresh it back up to a hint of its former glory
    There is a silver 405 at Imlachs, Centre Rd Springvale.
    The inlet manifold will look the same as your 205, the two white cars there have early motors and look entirel different in the manifold.
    It will cost around $150 for the head, but you have to take it off yourself.
    You can also use an Si head, two Sis at Imlachs, but you will need to change the camshaft, this will cost extra due to having to set up the shims for the cam followers.
    Yopu can't use a DFz head, the compression will be around 7 to 1!
    By the way one of the Sis there has Guttman front springs, standard struts though.
    Graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by gezza View Post
    1500 to 2000 to fit??!!!

    That sounds very very expensive to me tbh

    I would say between 750 to 1200 max......

    Is it the green one that was on here for sale?

    Tbh I would try one of the guys off here who is local to fit it...
    It was the green one that was listed on car sales about 6 weeks ago in NSW. I drove it back from Sydney. It looked ok, and he had all the receipts of all the work done over the last 10 years so I thought in the end it was a good buy. Its paint has faded, and the shocks are shot, but all in all it was in ok nic. Yeah I've been chatting to one of the forum members here, he said that it may be a better idea to go through a member or jsut a good honest mechanic to get a better price on the work. I thinking of picking the car up and doing that, although it needs quite a bit of other work done. The steering ram needs tobe replaced, shocks, all fluids changed, plugs general service, most likely all bushs etc replaced. Is there someone anyone could recommend who do this work? I don't mind running around and picking up all the parts to make it easier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    That explanation doesn't make sense. Try to clarify or post some pictures. Remember we have not seen your engine, and we're not mind readers. A clear explanation might make the difference between us being able to help or not.

    The wrong size bolt doesn't sound like anything. The oil gallery you talk about should be in the block not the head.

    The closest I can think of is using the headbolt at the back of the head without its very thick spacer which would destroy the block, not the head. Form what I read about this engine (and previous experience with other similar problems) this is a common mistake, as is fitting the camshaft bearing caps in the wrong place which breaks them on this engine.

    Have you actually looked at the problem area?
    Mate just don't know, I'm not very schooled up with the mechanics of this car, actually I'm a deadset newb. I'm only going off what Collin from alpine affair told me. He said a big chunk had been taken out the back of one of the cylinder heads which was causing the large oil leak. That is all I have to go off. I'm only doing this running around because I haven't heard back from him in 3 weeks.

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    [QUOTE=GRAHAM WALLIS;961083]
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny G View Post

    There is a silver 405 at Imlachs, Centre Rd Springvale.
    The inlet manifold will look the same as your 205, the two white cars there have early motors and look entirel different in the manifold.
    It will cost around $150 for the head, but you have to take it off yourself.
    You can also use an Si head, two Sis at Imlachs, but you will need to change the camshaft, this will cost extra due to having to set up the shims for the cam followers.
    Yopu can't use a DFz head, the compression will be around 7 to 1!
    By the way one of the Sis there has Guttman front springs, standard struts though.
    Graham
    Hi Graham, thanks for you help. I have been contacted by a member here who says he has a 1.6 Si head in good condition which he will sell to me for a decent price and I've taken him up on the offer. He was really nice and helpful and said that this head should be able to go straight in. When you say that I will have to change the camshaft....what does that entail? If I can work out the right price with Alpine affair, which seems to be an easier option just because they already have the car open, will this cost much more to do the shims/cam followers? I'm all a bit confused now!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gezza View Post
    Nope, thats currently for sale, I bought mine about 6 weeks ago or so

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    Default UPDATE - understand what you all mean now ;)

    I'm such a newb! any road, I've picked up an Si head from a forum member, and he has explained to me how it all works and what to do. All this time, I thought the mechanic was talking about a PISTON, not the cylinder head itself - stupid me i know! So, I'm now going to get the cams taken out of my car, take the lot to a machinest and get them to give the head a good clean, fit the GTI cams, and adjust the shims so they are all nice and tight. Then I'll just get alpine affair to refit the new head and get it running

    phew, fun learning about this stuff I must admit! Does anyone have a recommendation of a good engine machinest who knows how to work on these heads in Melbourne?

    thanks again for all your replies and help, must be frustrating trying to converse with someone who has no idea about engines! Sorry!

    cheers,

    John

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    One thing you need to be adamant if you take the head in for rebuilding is that the valve seats need to be cut at three angles. It is tempting for machine shops to do the quick and dirty job of cutting one angle, but these heads really need the three angle seat cut. INsist on it, and make sure they know the angle values (you can ask or find this on the web or the workshop manual.

    An interesting read is here:

    http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/PUG2058V.htm

    That'll clear some things for you.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    One thing you need to be adamant if you take the head in for rebuilding is that the valve seats need to be cut at three angles. It is tempting for machine shops to do the quick and dirty job of cutting one angle, but these heads really need the three angle seat cut. INsist on it, and make sure they know the angle values (you can ask or find this on the web or the workshop manual.

    An interesting read is here:

    http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/PUG2058V.htm

    That'll clear some things for you.
    Thanks mate, very interesting read, that bloke really knows his stuff! I don't think I will be refurb'ing the head, i wish I could but just don't have the cash at this stage. I'll just get it cleaned and the shims adjusted for the gti cams. Maybe the face machined so it fits flat on the block. If it isn't too much to get the seats worked, i may consider it, so thank you again for all your advice. Much, much appriecated.

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    There's nothing magical about three angle seats these days. Any decent head place will have a CNC seat cutter which will cut the seats quickly and cheaply. If they don't have such a machine, find another place. A few phone calls should sort it out. It should cost approx. $350-$400 to service the head and maybe another $100 to fit the cam. There's no way I'd be fitting an unknown head, given the amount of labour you're going to pay to remove/replace. Your Si head may well have worn seats and guides anyway. The cost of servicing the head is minor.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Peter T, I would think that is the case on the eastern coast. Good luck trying to find a CNC machine shop here in WA. Not sure why, but that's the way it is. Most people here tell you straight out your head will be sent to the east coast and that's all you get, you don't know who is doing what until you get it back.

    In Adelaide you'd be lucky to find some place where they heard of three angle seats.
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    Whether the machine is CNC or not is besides the point. My work uses a (non-CNC) Newen machine which has excellent accuracy. CNC seat cutters simply improve set-up time for the operator - not accuracy.
    Every machine shop I know of uses 3-angle cutters in their seat machines as a standard procedure.
    Very few job shops Australia wide would have CNC machines - it really is only of any use if you're a production/remanufacture shop.

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    That is true, you don't need CNC. Not sure why it came up.

    That being said, last time I had a head done in Adelaide and requested three angle cut valve seats, the result was not what I expected.
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    i think the engine is only getting a nose wipe not a full rebuild. if you start doing 3 angle seats etc etc then better rebuild bottom end, plus this, plus that, then were does it end. before you know it you have just mortaged the house to fix the car and it probley wont be much better off.

    just inspect and tidy up the head and make it serviceable. make sure the valves are seating, and the guides are not badly worn then set up the gti cam properly and put it back together with only what it needs. dont be a tight arse and dont go over the top just be sensible. a new timing belt is always good insurance and not expensive.

    if done properly it will run. it might still have other issues anyway, or it could run for 10 years problem free? either way worry about it when its going you will have more fun and time to diagnose it

    the other option is to bight the bullet and go the full rebuild now while its this far. i dont believe there is an in between bit

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    hey schlitzaugen, about 2 years ago i got my 8V S3 head fully rebuilt by a machining company here in osborne park. They did an awsome job. they have moved thou and i think have taken on a different type of machining contract.

    None the less i also came across another awsome shop here in osborne park, its called Harris Engines, ph 08 9444 3838, the guy there is Mark. Althou they havent done any head work for me i have been in their shop heaps of times and they certainly have some interesting jobs going on. They are very nice people and they were the only ones that i could find that offered to go thru the trouble of modifying my T16 inlet manifold to suit my application and repair the missing AC braket lump on the Sump. Very good harted and good work as far as i have heard. Mayby give them a call if you need any machining work done.
    205 GTi T16

    205 CTi

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    Quote Originally Posted by chez00 View Post
    Whether the machine is CNC or not is besides the point. My work uses a (non-CNC) Newen machine which has excellent accuracy. CNC seat cutters simply improve set-up time for the operator - not accuracy.
    Every machine shop I know of uses 3-angle cutters in their seat machines as a standard procedure.
    Very few job shops Australia wide would have CNC machines - it really is only of any use if you're a production/remanufacture shop.
    I disagree. The beauty of the CNC Newen is also repeatability. And if your set up times are less, the total time to process the job must be less, and the cost passed on to the consumer. Once you have a profile for 205 inlet seat programmed, it's just a matter of hitting the GO button each time (assuming you have good guides). Spring heights come out reliably at +/- 0.001" instead of +/- 0.010". They place I use is certainly not a production shop. In addition, the machine is also used for other processes such as boring bucket bores. Accuracy and surface finish is amazing. Below are some profiles for an Mi16 oversized inlet valve I have stored in their machine. The tool also does a nice job of enlarging & straightening up the port, all in one operation.

    Anyway, the main point being, if you're making a head serviceable, the cost involved in stripping it and cutting new seats etc., is minimal compared to the cost of the labour and aggro involved if you put a dud head back on.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Replacement cylinder head 205 GTI 1.9 (1992)?-3-angle-bv-seat.jpg  

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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