505 clutch - Help!
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  1. #1
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    Icon8 505 clutch - Help!

    The clutch will have to be done on the SRDT soon - it seems the fork must be bent Even with pedal to the floor it will no longer disengage fully, and is worse the colder it gets.

    Can any of you guys suggest very roughly how many hours is in this job? I will be doing it up at the workshop in Goonengerry with Costa who is a Peugeot man, and hopefully doing most of the donkey work myself....

    Also, should I opt for the gearbox out option and at the same time attempt to rectify the 2nd gear syncro problem? (likely to be a spring only, according to an old post from demannu). I need to weigh this up as engine out would mean easy access to easy-out the broken power steering pump mounting bolts.

    Funds are nonexistent at the moment so when I got to the part in Haynes where it says, and I quote, "Access to the clutch is by either removing the gearbox or engine. Unless work is also necessary on the gearbox, it is recommended the engine is removed, as this involves less work." I then started envisioning this car as a bit of a project......

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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by thomevans View Post
    The clutch will have to be done on the SRDT soon - it seems the fork must be bent Even with pedal to the floor it will no longer disengage fully, and is worse the colder it gets.

    Can any of you guys suggest very roughly how many hours is in this job? I will be doing it up at the workshop in Goonengerry with Costa who is a Peugeot man, and hopefully doing most of the donkey work myself....

    Also, should I opt for the gearbox out option and at the same time attempt to rectify the 2nd gear syncro problem? (likely to be a spring only, according to an old post from demannu). I need to weigh this up as engine out would mean easy access to easy-out the broken power steering pump mounting bolts.

    Funds are nonexistent at the moment so when I got to the part in Haynes where it says, and I quote, "Access to the clutch is by either removing the gearbox or engine. Unless work is also necessary on the gearbox, it is recommended the engine is removed, as this involves less work." I then started envisioning this car as a bit of a project......
    More likely to be the hydraulics, replace cylinders and replace the the hose while you're at it.
    You can't buy these but a Renault 18 (Caravelle can confirm this ) brake hose will work.
    These hoses can/will block due to internal swelling.

  3. #3
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    i'm also having clutch issues with my STi

    the pedal has gone floppy - nothing to push against and it just returns due to spring

    the clutch was replaced last year so sure its not mechanical ...

    reservoir empty .. slave cylander leaking

    thoughts?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    More likely to be the hydraulics, replace cylinders and replace the the hose while you're at it.
    That's what I thought at first but no fluid loss and hydraulics seem to be working fine (according to Costa)....

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    No harm in double-checking what Costa says.....it's a lot of work changing a clutch....
    Fluid loss does not always occur if hydraulics wear out. Often, the slave will simply suck back air into the system.
    If funds are low, you'd feel pretty silly taking it all apart only to find it was the clutch hydraulics. If your engine is misfiring, do you take it out, or try replacing the spark plugs ?
    Get underneath the car while someone is pushing down the clutch, and have a look at the fork where it joins on to the slave cylinder, and where it goes into the gearbox. Is there much movement ? If yes, go ahead and replace fork. If no.....do hydraulics. Bleeding the system is not the same as in other cars, and can drive some people nuts, but it's actually easy if you know how. More later.

    Forks do wear out. You should replace the fork EVERY time a clutch is done, on a 504 or 505.

    A dicky 2nd gear synchro can be lived with, if you're careful changing gear.....no problem.

    Robjer, seems that you need to do the same. Usually the master cylinder wears out before the slave, so don't just re-kit the slave.....do master too.
    Last edited by Beano; 11th May 2011 at 02:07 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beano View Post
    No harm in double-checking what Costa says.....it's a lot of work changing a clutch....
    Fluid loss does not always occur if hydraulics wear out. Often, the slave will simply suck back air.
    If funds are low, you'd feel pretty silly taking it all apart only to find it was the clutch hydraulics. If your engine is misfiring, do you take it out, or try replacing the spark plugs ?
    Get underneath the car while someone is pushing down the clutch, and have a look at the fork where it joins on to the slave cylinder, and where it goes into the gearbox. Is there much movement ? If yes, go ahead and replace fork. If no.....do hydraulics. Bleeding the system is not the same asa in other cars, and can drive some people nuts, but it's actually easy if you know how. More later.

    Forks do wear out. You should replace the fork EVERY time a clutch is done, on a 504 or 505.

    A dicky 2nd gear synchro can be lived with, if you're careful changing gear.....no problem.

    Robjer, seems that you need to do the same. Usually the master cylinder wears out before the slave, so don't just re-kit the slave.....do master too.
    Kits are no longer available, seems today's mechanics have been deskilled and prefer to change complete cylinders.
    If not the hydraulics it highly unlikely that the fork has been bent but maybe a pressure plate problem or maybe the peg that the fork sits on is broken.
    In 504s this can be propped up and if the fork is held in place with a spring the repair will last for years.
    Graham

  7. #7
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thomevans View Post
    The clutch will have to be done on the SRDT soon - it seems the fork must be bent Even with pedal to the floor it will no longer disengage fully, and is worse the colder it gets.

    Can any of you guys suggest very roughly how many hours is in this job? I will be doing it up at the workshop in Goonengerry with Costa who is a Peugeot man, and hopefully doing most of the donkey work myself....

    Also, should I opt for the gearbox out option and at the same time attempt to rectify the 2nd gear syncro problem? (likely to be a spring only, according to an old post from demannu). I need to weigh this up as engine out would mean easy access to easy-out the broken power steering pump mounting bolts.

    Funds are nonexistent at the moment so when I got to the part in Haynes where it says, and I quote, "Access to the clutch is by either removing the gearbox or engine. Unless work is also necessary on the gearbox, it is recommended the engine is removed, as this involves less work." I then started envisioning this car as a bit of a project......
    The gearbox synchro may be the spring if it came on suddenly. If it's been gradually getting worse, it will be the synchro cone itself.

    Does your clutch slip? Some clutches when very worn will not only slip, but not entirely disengage due to the angle of the fingers having changed as the clutch wears.

    A bent fork is unlikely, a broken fork is common on 505s now. If you have a 505 that has done over 200,000km and has never had the clutch fork replaced, I'd be learning how to drive without a clutch, just in case. However yours doesn't sound broken. But if you do replace the clutch, I strongly agree with other suggestions that the clutch fork should be replaced whenever the clutch is replaced, and lubricated with a waterproof grease at the pivot point, the contact point with the thrust bearing and the contact point with the pushrod to the slave cylinder. You can actually add grease to the pivot point during routine servicing by sticking some grease on the end of a long thin screwdriver.

    Another thing on 505s that can cause the clutch to not disengage properly is wearing of the pushrod that goes from the clutch pedal to the master cylinder. It is basically a piece of steel, about 6 inches long and 1/8 of an inch in diameter with a 90 degree bend on one end. You can see it if you pull off the bit of trim between the bottom of the steering column and the firewall, covering the pedals. Grab a torch and look upwards. There are a couple of washers and a split pin or clip that hold it to the pedal. It wears out at the contact point between the pedal and the pushrod, just next to the 90 degree bend. The result is that the hydraulic system won't move far enough to disengage the clutch, as the full movement of the pedal does not correlate to full movement of the master cylinder. Eventually they break off completely, and you have no clutch at all. There is no return spring on the clutch pedal of a 505, so the dead giveaway that the pushrod is broken is that the pedal is sitting on the floor. To test to see if it's worn, lift the clutch pedal up and see how much movement the pedal has before it hits the stop. There shouldn't be more than about 10-15mm movement, any more and your pushrod is shot. and you're not getting complete clutch disengagement.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    The gearbox synchro may be the spring if it came on suddenly. If it's been gradually getting worse, it will be the synchro cone itself.

    Does your clutch slip? Some clutches when very worn will not only slip, but not entirely disengage due to the angle of the fingers having changed as the clutch wears.

    A bent fork is unlikely, a broken fork is common on 505s now. If you have a 505 that has done over 200,000km and has never had the clutch fork replaced, I'd be learning how to drive without a clutch, just in case. However yours doesn't sound broken. But if you do replace the clutch, I strongly agree with other suggestions that the clutch fork should be replaced whenever the clutch is replaced, and lubricated with a waterproof grease at the pivot point, the contact point with the thrust bearing and the contact point with the pushrod to the slave cylinder. You can actually add grease to the pivot point during routine servicing by sticking some grease on the end of a long thin screwdriver.

    Another thing on 505s that can cause the clutch to not disengage properly is wearing of the pushrod that goes from the clutch pedal to the master cylinder. It is basically a piece of steel, about 6 inches long and 1/8 of an inch in diameter with a 90 degree bend on one end. You can see it if you pull off the bit of trim between the bottom of the steering column and the firewall, covering the pedals. Grab a torch and look upwards. There are a couple of washers and a split pin or clip that hold it to the pedal. It wears out at the contact point between the pedal and the pushrod, just next to the 90 degree bend. The result is that the hydraulic system won't move far enough to disengage the clutch, as the full movement of the pedal does not correlate to full movement of the master cylinder. Eventually they break off completely, and you have no clutch at all. There is no return spring on the clutch pedal of a 505, so the dead giveaway that the pushrod is broken is that the pedal is sitting on the floor. To test to see if it's worn, lift the clutch pedal up and see how much movement the pedal has before it hits the stop. There shouldn't be more than about 10-15mm movement, any more and your pushrod is shot. and you're not getting complete clutch disengagement.
    Thanks heaps Scotty for the advice....
    We have had a look at everything else and it's all working fine - deduction being it must be a bent fork.
    I am going away to the UK in 2 weeks for 3 months so it will have to sit till I get back.
    Cheers,
    Thom

  9. #9
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    Default Bush mechanics...

    We fashioned a temporary fix for the clutch on the SRDT today - a spacer to extend the reach of the slave cylinder. Obviously this will put more pressure on the bent fork but at least it's driveable for now, which I'm happy about as I want to have it driven every week while we are overseas for 3 months, as I know they don't like standing. When I get back later in the year I hope to be in a position to tackle the job properly....and fix the power steering.
    And to continue the bush fixes we also had to weld one of the Panhard rods from the wagon back together this afternoon. The front end had been broken for a while it seems, not that I'd noticed. The rear end gave way today on the way to pre-school and had to be temporarily attached with string.
    I still love my 505s
    Goonengerry 505


  10. #10
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Jeez, man ! You're more game than me .....
    What will happen if the fork bends more or breaks while a long way from home ? It's likely to do so, since it has started already....
    I'd be more inclined to just have someone fire up the engine every 2 or 3 weeks and let it run for 5 mins, to keep the battery charged.

  11. #11
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    I don't mean to question Costa's judgement, but I REALLY don't think you have a bent fork.

    Forks in 505s don't bend. They break. For them to bend at all, they have to break through the ribs on either side of the fork. Once this is gone, two more pumps of the pedal and it will fracture through the entire width of the fork.

    I think what is more likely is a combination of worn out parts. Individually there wouldn't be a problem, but together they compound to give the symptoms you have now.

    Wear on the clutch fingers where the thrust bearing rides will make some slack. Wear in the pivot point of the clutch fork will make some slack. Wear between the fork, pushrod and slave cylinder will make some slack. Wear in the clutch pedal pushrod will add a lot of slack.

    The result is a system that the movement of the clutch pedal doesn't make enough movement of the clutch fingers.

    I would STRONGLY recommend closely checking the pedal pushrod. If it's gotten so far as to make the clutch not entirely disengage, it can't be far off breaking completely. It's not a difficult thing to check.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    I don't mean to question Costa's judgement, but I REALLY don't think you have a bent fork.

    Forks in 505s don't bend. They break. For them to bend at all, they have to break through the ribs on either side of the fork. Once this is gone, two more pumps of the pedal and it will fracture through the entire width of the fork.

    I think what is more likely is a combination of worn out parts. Individually there wouldn't be a problem, but together they compound to give the symptoms you have now.

    Wear on the clutch fingers where the thrust bearing rides will make some slack. Wear in the pivot point of the clutch fork will make some slack. Wear between the fork, pushrod and slave cylinder will make some slack. Wear in the clutch pedal pushrod will add a lot of slack.

    The result is a system that the movement of the clutch pedal doesn't make enough movement of the clutch fingers.

    I would STRONGLY recommend closely checking the pedal pushrod. If it's gotten so far as to make the clutch not entirely disengage, it can't be far off breaking completely. It's not a difficult thing to check.
    Hey Scotty, what we are talking about is wear at the pivot point of the fork - my inadequate description. Costa reckoned this was visible on peering through to lubricate it. I can't really tell as I don't have a good one to compare it with.
    There is some wear in the pedal pushrod, you can see abrasion after it has turned the 90 degree bend. I didn't think it was too much - lifting the pedal gives about 15-20mm slack, but from what you say I should be replacing it maybe? I've got biting point at a couple of inches up the pedal travel now and that might give me some more...
    Cheers,
    Goonengerry 505


  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beano View Post
    Jeez, man ! You're more game than me .....
    What will happen if the fork bends more or breaks while a long way from home ? It's likely to do so, since it has started already....
    I'd be more inclined to just have someone fire up the engine every 2 or 3 weeks and let it run for 5 mins, to keep the battery charged.
    Yeah, I know. I have been advised that it may give way any time, so it will be getting limited use, with gentle and sparing use of the clutch. A good chance to use all that torque. We never go too far from home. I was in LISMORE today (35km away), that's about as far as it gets!
    Cheers!
    Goonengerry 505


  14. #14
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    Default 505

    after reading all this thread,
    why don't you just do the job right instead of quick fixes. You also have to thing of the safety of your car and people who drive it while your away.
    grow up and just do it right.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by 505v6 View Post
    after reading all this thread,
    why don't you just do the job right instead of quick fixes. You also have to thing of the safety of your car and people who drive it while your away.
    grow up and just do it right.
    It's not so much a case of quick fixes but affordable, besides which I'm finding it hard to imagine a way in which my clutch might cause any safety issues!
    I'm grown up enough to manage my own risks thanks very much, and when I have the $$$$$ to "just" replace the clutch, I will.

    I can understand why there aren't that many other battlers on here trying to run a couple of old frogs as daily drivers, and I really appreciate the great help I get from some fellow froggers when trying to do so. Others may think I would be better off getting a Camry, and $$$-wise I would be, but it's so much more fun and interesting this way.
    Goonengerry 505


  16. #16
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    Default 505 clutch

    Hi
    I am running a 505 GTD as a daily driver and recently had trouble with gear changing due to a clutch problem .I initially thought that the clutch fork may have been bent or the hydraulics were suspect. Changed clutch master and slave cylinder to no avail and as the car has done 435000k's thought I'd better take a look at the clutch by removing the gearbox (5 sp manual). No way could I get the box out with motor in so bolt it back together and take the engine out. Sure enough the clutch had broken springs and was badly worn however I also discovered a small coolant weep at the back of the cylinder head.
    It being such a big job to get the motor out I decided to do the works (rings,bearings ,seals cylinder hone etc.) as well .You can get parts from overseas sometimes for up to 50% less than local prices if you look. I figure I'll pay around a thousand bucks for parts and machining on a car that cost me seventeen hundred that gets 6.8 to 7.0 L per 100 K driven reasonably hard, can tow up to 2 tons, has a ride and handling that puts many modern cars to shame. Well worth it I'd say.

  17. #17
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    Icon14 Clutch Pedal Rod!!

    Well, I decided to finally get round to having a look at the SRDT today - the assumption was that the clutch had finally given in and would have to be replaced.

    For some reason the first thing I did was to look in the glove box, and sitting there staring at me was the new clutch pedal rod I got from Coles in Lismore a few weeks ago. Now, this should have been in place 2 days after I left for the UK, and as far as I knew it was...suffice to say the person I leant the car to, and who promised to either do this little job, or get it done, "in a day or two", won't be borrowing anything of mine again!

    So, I fitted the rod and of course the clutch now works perfectly.

    Demannu - you were right of course, thanks heaps...
    Goonengerry 505


  18. #18
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    Here is what the old rod looks like - this is enough to reduce the effective travel by a couple of inches...




  19. #19
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    That's actually not that bad. I've seen them a lot worse, they will get down to about 20% thickness and then snap.

    If your clutch wasn't working with this amount of wear, I would suggest that you don't have a lot of life left in some of the other components in the system as I mentioned above, such as the fingers on the clutch plate or the slave cylinder pushrod.

    However, the pushrod you have just replaced, in my experience, has tenfold the effect of any of the other worn components, so hopefully you've got some life left in it!

    It's good practice to put a little grease on this component every 10,000km or so.... I'm sure you understand why now!
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by thomevans View Post
    ...we also had to weld one of the Panhard rods from the wagon back together this afternoon. The front end had been broken for a while it seems, not that I'd noticed. The rear end gave way today on the way to pre-school and had to be temporarily attached with string.
    I still love my 505s
    Quote Originally Posted by 505v6 View Post
    after reading all this thread,
    why don't you just do the job right instead of quick fixes. You also have to thing of the safety of your car and people who drive it while your away.
    grow up and just do it right.
    The welded panhard rod is still going strong. Just saying.
    Goonengerry 505


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