505 Power steering
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  1. #1
    al
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    Default 505 Power steering

    Has anyone removed all the PAS fittings from a s2 505? Mine is quite dead and I like the simplicity of it not being there. I've driven a few 205s with PAS racks and the ram/fittings removed which feel ok.

    G Wallis suggested it might be a bit heavy, but hadn't tried it.

    Can anyone give any firsthand feedback?

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    Not quite on subject but there might not be any difference - my S1 SRDT is currently without it's power steering while I get around to fitting the replacement pump (there is a bolt which needs drilling out). The steering is heavy, especially at parking speed, although not unmanageable. It's heavier than normal at higher speeds only on the tighter bends - but that can catch you out until you get used to it. No doubt the gearing is higher than it would be on a similar vehicle supplied without PAS fitted. But I've got used to it now and am prepared to put up with it for a while...
    Goonengerry 505


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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    the only reason you are going to find it heavy is that the orbital valve is still in place and these things act like a pump as well as a valve to direct fluid
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo View Post
    the only reason you are going to find it heavy is that the orbital valve is still in place and these things act like a pump as well as a valve to direct fluid
    Thanks for that pugrambo. How easy is it to remove the orbital valve?

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    My 504 rally car has a power steer rack with no hydrulics or power head , ( just machined splines onto the top of the pinion and fitted a steel uni normaly found under the dash)

    On dirt the steering is fine , I never notice it at all in stages , but on tar it can be a real PITA . I think very carefully about entering carparks etc. was even worse with a welded diff.

    On a rally last year we went onto tar for a long right hand bend at about 120kph and the sateering loaded up a hell of a lot , took me by suprise , but as the car already turned in I only had to hold on .

    PS my car runs about 5degress caster, this does not help.
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    I much prefer the feedback of the unassisted rack, I have three 504 rally cars and a recce car running like that. As Andy said, watch the load at high speeds, but I can report that even in excess of 200 km/hr it is very sure footed as long as you keep two firm hands on the steering wheel. Better for flicking and opposite lock. PITA when parking, but that's about the only drawback.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanos View Post
    I much prefer the feedback of the unassisted rack, I have three 504 rally cars and a recce car running like that. As Andy said, watch the load at high speeds, but I can report that even in excess of 200 km/hr it is very sure footed as long as you keep two firm hands on the steering wheel. Better for flicking and opposite lock. PITA when parking, but that's about the only drawback.
    Horses for courses, and a matter of personal choice, I think, Thanos. I FITTED PS to the 205 for much the same reasons. Maybe I'm a weakling, but I find it difficult to apply small corrections when the steering is loaded up, and you are busy hanging on. It may be a matter of driving style. I don't, and probably couldn't, compete in gravel rallies, and rarely get the car much out of shape. Opposite lock would be an emergency, and probably too late and too little. Racing, the car always has a fair bit of attitude, but the wheel is not much flung around - rather the car is balanced with a series of constant small corrections, just feeling your way along the edge of your ability, as it were. Tarmac rallies are similar, but a step or two back. I always like to have quite a bit in hand amongst the big trees. On the road, what are we talking about here? Anyone who talks about driving like this on the road, I immediately dismiss as a fool, and put on my mental "ignore list".

    Some cars, and some PS installations, may give more feedback than others. I find the PS on the 205 to suit the car perfectly. The car is light, and very sensitive to drive, thus equipped. I'm pretty sure that Chris Snell has removed the PS from his, but he's a legend. Adrian removed his, because every time he had to apply some quick opposite lock, he blew hoses off, dumping fluid and spinning on the fluid. Adrian is bigger and stronger than me. I would have used better hose fittings and kept the PS.

    Cheers,

    Tim

  8. #8
    al
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    Thanks for the constructive feedback... i had almost given up on this.

    I much prefer the feel of the unassisted racks in the 205, whether the early models standard or the late ones with the hydraulics removed. I don't use the 205 around the city or for shopping, as there we have a sensible car and now the 405 for that.

    I basically want to keep the 505 for weekends and rough roads, which none of the others are well suited for. It isn't a performance car and doesn't get used as such - it is about practicality and space, and having something i'm happy to get into covered in mud after a ride.

    This is also about simplicity. I intend to remove as much dispensable stuff from this car as possible. The 205 is so pleasant to work on without PAS, air con, alarms, remote oil filters etc, and i think this car could afford to lose some things that either don't work or aren't needed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by al View Post
    This is also about simplicity. I intend to remove as much dispensable stuff from this car as possible. The 205 is so pleasant to work on without PAS, air con, alarms, remote oil filters etc, and i think this car could afford to lose some things that either don't work or aren't needed.
    I stuggle to grasp the merits of running a PS rack sans fluid, but as you and tim say,its such a personal thing.
    I have learned to just agree to differ with anyone who claims a non PS fuego has more feedback and is racier than a PS fuego so will leave it at that.

    As far as simplicity goes though, I envy the passive steering gang.
    I'd switch back in a second if I believed there were significant advantages.
    I'm upgrading my PS at the moment, and there is soooo much hardware and weight associated with the rig, not to mention expense when replacing 25 year old hoses, so the old blow off doesn't happen when you least expect it.
    Another advantage the non PS has over PS is that when the PS starts to malfunction, even on passive street driving it totaly freaks you out and takes away any confidence you have that you pertain the hardware to avoid trees.
    My old automatic goon would occasionally drop to non PS just as you enter the corner, and if you were really unlucky it would stall too.
    Who needs drugs when you can get a free shot of natural endorphins like you do when that happens.

    Jo

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    Quote Originally Posted by al View Post
    Thanks for the constructive feedback... i had almost given up on this.
    Not helpful. Might explain things more than somewhat.

    Tim

  11. #11
    al
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    I stuggle to grasp the merits of running a PS rack sans fluid, but as you and tim say,its such a personal thing.
    I have learned to just agree to differ with anyone who claims a non PS fuego has more feedback and is racier than a PS fuego so will leave it at that.

    As far as simplicity goes though, I envy the passive steering gang.
    I'd switch back in a second if I believed there were significant advantages.
    I'm upgrading my PS at the moment, and there is soooo much hardware and weight associated with the rig, not to mention expense when replacing 25 year old hoses, so the old blow off doesn't happen when you least expect it.
    Another advantage the non PS has over PS is that when the PS starts to malfunction, even on passive street driving it totaly freaks you out and takes away any confidence you have that you pertain the hardware to avoid trees.
    My old automatic goon would occasionally drop to non PS just as you enter the corner, and if you were really unlucky it would stall too.
    Who needs drugs when you can get a free shot of natural endorphins like you do when that happens.

    Jo
    You have hit most of my concerns on the head there. I don't want to spend a fortune replacing every component in the steering system, which realistically it probably needs if it is going to be reliable. I especially don't want to spend a lot if i could be just as happy with an unassisted rack.

    The 205 people run the later racks without assistance as they are a bit quicker than the early ones. I assume the 505s are the same, but the appeal for me is that there is an assisted rack in it currently.

    I think this needs further investigation. Thanks for the feedback.

    And Jo, my brief time in an unassisted fuego makes me think you are right. That thing had massively heavy steering while also being very indirect. Not a good combination!
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  12. #12
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    I would never run a 205 without the assist, both my 205 and 106 rally cars worked really well assisted. But the 504's are a different story, you need to drive one with the assistance removed to form an opinion. Mine is that it is perfectly safe and acceptable, even for everyday driving.

  13. #13
    al
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanos View Post
    I would never run a 205 without the assist, both my 205 and 106 rally cars worked really well assisted. But the 504's are a different story, you need to drive one with the assistance removed to form an opinion. Mine is that it is perfectly safe and acceptable, even for everyday driving.
    Thanks Thanos - your input is always appreciated.

    I will update once there is progress.
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