505 SRDT vs GTi, some observations
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! sideways_505's Avatar
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    Default 505 SRDT vs GTi, some observations

    So, as some of you may know, my mum recently acquired a 1982 505 SRDT, this being the only other 505 besides mine that I have driven, I can't help comparing them.

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    Just a bit of a run down on the 2 cars....

    The SRDT: Absolutely immaculate, I'd say it's one of the best condition 505s in aus. Only done 240'000 kms. It's got a 3 speed auto, the whole interior has been re trimmed in the wool tweed stuff, new glow plugs and injectors recently ect ect. Pure grandpa spec, even has the venition on the rear window. She paid $2500 for it.

    The GTi: 1985 S2 sedan, 5 speed manual, leaded engine. A bit of a shitter really, the paint's all faded and peeling off in places, the interior is original and ummm quite well used, it's all pretty worn out having done about 600'000kms. I paid $1000 for it a few years ago.

    So to start off, I'l compare the biggest difference, the engines. As you'd expect, the GTi is sh!t loads more powerful, even then it's not that great. It'd hold it's own to a early '90's v6 commodore. The diesel is slow, there's no other way to put it, not much better than my 403 tbh but it's so much more drivable than the GTi. The GTi has no power under 3000rpm, it's just gutless. Come to a hill under 3000rpm in top gear and watch the revs drop, on the other hand the same hill over 3000rpm will see it accelerating eagerly up that hill, you'l be well over the speed limit though. The SRDT doesn't seem to notice when there's a hill, or a trailer on it or really anything, just keeps the same speed no matter what you point it at. The thing with the SRDT is that it's quite happy to sit on 100km/h but doesn't like going much faster, the GTi seems to want to sit on about 130 which is bloody annoying. Fuel economy? Well the GTi uses more than just about any modern car you can name, the SRDT doesn't use any fuel at all. The diesel would be much better to live with every day, the GTi is so much more fun. The SRDT looks to be about 767784123009399842497685987237975 times easier to work on than the GTi, prepare for hours of swearing if you want to do anything under the bonnet of a GTi. The SRDT is the most diesel sounding diesel in the world, we had it sitting next to one of the old ford tractors on the farm, if you had of tried to pick which was which by the sound, you'd be wrong. The GTi sounds like crap at the moment. That'l change soon though.

    Gearbox. If you're buying a 505 it's probably because you want a practical drivers car. If so, do not even for a second consider an auto. The SRDTs 3 speed is nice and smooth (usually), certainly needs another gear though. The auto just makes the car so much more boring to drive. Doesn't really matter so much with the diesel though, in fact I think they work quite well together. The manual in the GTi it pretty nice, no complaints there.

    Handling. This was the biggest surprise for me. The SRDT rides quite similar to the GTi, if not worse. It's a pretty average ride really. I expected the SRDT to have the 505s ledgendary ride but it just doesn't, I'm yet to experience a truly nice riding 505 actually. In the corners the SRDT rolls around and just generally doesn't handle all that great, the GTi is just awesome. End of story. Something interesting was the difference in the shock absorbers, I've always read people saying the GTi shocks are so much better and to fit them to the other models if you can. I agree completely. It actually took me a while to get used to how good the 505s shocks are. I know it sounds ridiculous but those who have driven them will understand I'm sure. Basically the GTi craps all over the SRDT in every aspect here.

    Interior. This is mostly just personal opinion. I think the S2 (GTi) interior is much more functional and better set out, better looking too. Much more modern at the very least. The S1 interior is still fine, just more difficult to live with. Every one agrees the GTis seats are better than the already brilliant SRDT seats. Most people update the stereos but I'l say this anyway. The SRDTs stereo is a disgrace to all stereos, completely unintelligible and seems to have a mind of its own, heap of sh!t. Replace it immediately. The GTis one is pretty good for a mid 80s stereo, crap by todays standards. The GTi gets crystal clear FM at our house which is 12kms out of a small country town, the SRDTs one might, but you'd have to try and find a radio station first.

    It's no contest for me, the GTi is in a whole other league. The SRDT is very much a white goods car, the GTi is a drivers car. I was really quite disappointed with the SRDT, having read on here about how good the legendary 505 diesels are it really didn't live up to that. The GTi was everything I was told it would be and more.

    Mum said she'd like a diesel (for the economy) with an auto in a s2 GTi shell. I think that says it all pretty well.

    What do you guys think of them? Feel free to include talk about GRs, SRs, STis, GTDs ect.

    Thanks

    Hayden

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! Doush_504's Avatar
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    Very nice comparison
    Chadi

    1982 504 SR white manual sedan with A/C (257 000 Km)
    2012 308 1.6 VTi Vapor Grey manual H/B (35000 Km)
    1994 405 1.6 white manual sedan (208 000 Km)
    1992 605 SV24 (91 000 Km)
    2005 406 2.0L automatic (Replaced with a 2013 C5)
    1983 505 GR white manual sedan with A/C (170000 Km)

    All since new


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    Good comparison Hayden - most of which I entirely agree with. The main difference in our household is the SRDT is a 5 spd manual with high kms and the GTI is an '92 auto (4 spd) wagon with lowish kms.
    Basically the GTI is the one I would choose to jump into because it's sooooooo smooth and has the fantastic handling and ride you talk about. Even with the auto I find it great fun to drive - we live up in the hills so it's all tight bends. I guess the 4th speed helps - I select 3rd heaps for engine braking into corners and maintaining momentum up hill, and that will take you to 100kmh. It is so much faster than the diesel of course which, even with the manual box is agricultural to say the least.
    However on a long run I would probably choose the SRDT if I could fit the luggage in it - all that torque makes cruising simpler and makes hills effortless as you point out. Surprised you say it doesn't like going over 100kmh - anything up to 130 is quite relaxed in ours really, and I reached 160 the other day on a long downhill stretch
    I would be interested to drive a GTI sedan and compare the handling/ride to the wagon - I guess the ride would be a little better although any improvement would beggar belief really.... Wondering if the stiffer rear on the wagon actually makes them handle a bit better??
    Cheers,
    Goonengerry 505


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    Fellow Frogger! tomb's Avatar
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    Default GTi V SRDT

    Good write up Hayden.

    I'm in a mixed mood at the moment. Both our 505's are manuls, the SRDT has just been put right and all I can say is it is going better than ever, did about 300 klm over the weekend, pushing it hard, loved every Klm. It has clocked up 440 thou klm's. The diesel rides softer than the gti, holds gear longer, and is really only hard work when you need to be nimble and quick in city traffic.

    The Gti which I have been fixing up over the last four years generally disappoints me. It is unleaded, gets only 500 to a tank, it is not quick, and really only comes into it's own on the highways. Has one problem left to solve which an ocassional miss below 2000 rpm, seems to be weather/ temperature related. The lower profile tyres have better grip than the car needs and give a much harder ride. The brakes are better in this car. Clearly a Megsauirt 2 conversion would bring the best out of this car, and the next set of tyres could be 195/70's.

    Both cars fail to cope in hot weather, in fact I'm yet to own a peugeot that hasn't had this problem.

    Long trip, I'd take the diesel
    Daily driver, I'd take the diesel (diesels don't like sitting unused)
    Short towing, the GTi (first gear better and better brakes)
    Short dash, GTi
    Trip aroung Oz, has to be diesel
    Someone else driving, GTi
    Teaching a learner, GTi


    Tom

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    Fellow Frogger! Uffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sideways_505 View Post
    do not even for a second consider an auto.
    Agreed, the only auto diesel 505 I've driven was complete crap, stick the boot in and nothing happened at all. I'd say this has much more of an influence over the driving experience than diesel versus petrol. The 505 GTD I've got is way better to drive than the auto SR my Dad used to have.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomb View Post
    Teaching a learner, GTi
    I'd go for a diesel, harder to stall.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uffee View Post
    I'd go for a diesel, harder to stall.
    That's interesting. I've recently been driving a (non Pug) diesel, and, if you are at all careless about what gear you are in, doh, you've stalled it! This never happens to me in a petrol engined car.

    It's my first extended experience with a diesel, and I'm loving the way it all happens below 3,000 rpm, but I guess this means that, if you are a gear too high, it just might be trying to pull away at, ummm, 750 rpm. Not quite enough?

    Tim

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    Fellow Frogger! Uffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcusack View Post
    That's interesting. I've recently been driving a (non Pug) diesel, and, if you are at all careless about what gear you are in, doh, you've stalled it! This never happens to me in a petrol engined car.

    It's my first extended experience with a diesel, and I'm loving the way it all happens below 3,000 rpm, but I guess this means that, if you are a gear too high, it just might be trying to pull away at, ummm, 750 rpm. Not quite enough?

    Tim
    As in all things, it depends I guess. My 504 diesel with 23:1 compression and a ~3.7 diff would pull away up quite a significant incline without any throttle, the governor would take care of it. The 505GTD with slightly reduced compression and a 3.3 diff can't do the same slope.

    A modern diesel with ~17:1 compression and electrickery injection mightn't be calibrated or have the torque at idle for such a thing.
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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    my sister had probably the best 505 SRDT i have ever seen

    when she got it everything under the bonnet was not very far from being brand new due to a stuff up by peugeot so they replaced everything

    the car when she got it had close to 200k on it and the car was immaculate

    it was a 5spd and although a standard 50model 203 would burn it off from a standing start she used to get that thing cruising quite well on the freeways at around 140km/h without too much drama and it was pretty damn quiet inside for a tractor

    out side the car was a different story though, ear muffs are near mandatory if you wanted to retain hearing when standing too close to it

    i'm not sure where or how many km's the car has on it now but she sold to renweaves father in i think newcastle but it has since been moved on again

    for a diesel it was a bloody brilliant car

    as for handling, you have to remember that there is a hell of a lot of weight in the front end of these things and that has to be taken into consideration when sizing up the bends in the road

    was always funny though at traffic lights young backward hat wearing twits would see the turbo badge on the car and always wanted to drag race to the next set of lights, was always good for a
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  10. #10
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Don't worry about the noise of the deisel. The XM here probably has the most "modern" version of an all mechanical diesel you could find. A 12valve turbo charged 2.1litre motor.................. An 80year old fergi tractor with 300,000hours of hard labour on it would sound smooth and quiet in comparison ... You certainly get some strange looks clattering your way through carparks.

    Your biggest problem is you bought the wrong car. If you want a car of that vintage that has a diesel ..... you must find a Citroen CX. In it's time it won nearly every economy and speed passenger deisel car record in the world. Capable of 195km/h and 0-100 in about 10.5seconds (rather than the 19seconds of the poogoe) and 42mpg (rather than 28mpg of the 505) .... there really isn't a comparison at all to be made. Ones barely average at best, the other is excpetional in every way Good luck finding one that hasn't already done 3,000,000km 'cos they drive so well though

    I reckon if you could stick a 2.1TD 12valve from a 406/XM/Xantia into that 505 and a proper gearbox ... you'd be bloody impressed and very amazed at it's performance. It would give the GTi a run for it's money ... The only hard bit will be finding a 2.1 with a decent bosch pump.

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    if I ever find a rusty/crashed 505 2.5TD with the 4 speed ZF auto (they were sold here in the UK) I'll be very tempted to have it and transplant it into my 604. I would need a shortened torque tube though.

    It wouldn't be a great drive but it would be more suited to my lifestyle as what I need is a cruiser that doesn't inflame my dodgy knee.

    Some of the French spec 2.5TDs had an intercooler and I think were packing 110bhp
    but then the PRV is only about 130bhp and a lot less torque.

    It's just the noise that won't be the same.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Don't worry about the noise of the deisel. The XM here probably has the most "modern" version of an all mechanical diesel you could find. A 12valve turbo charged 2.1litre motor.................. An 80year old fergi tractor with 300,000hours of hard labour on it would sound smooth and quiet in comparison ... You certainly get some strange looks clattering your way through carparks.

    Your biggest problem is you bought the wrong car. If you want a car of that vintage that has a diesel ..... you must find a Citroen CX. In it's time it won nearly every economy and speed passenger deisel car record in the world. Capable of 195km/h and 0-100 in about 10.5seconds (rather than the 19seconds of the poogoe) and 42mpg (rather than 28mpg of the 505) .... there really isn't a comparison at all to be made. Ones barely average at best, the other is excpetional in every way Good luck finding one that hasn't already done 3,000,000km 'cos they drive so well though

    I reckon if you could stick a 2.1TD 12valve from a 406/XM/Xantia into that 505 and a proper gearbox ... you'd be bloody impressed and very amazed at it's performance. It would give the GTi a run for it's money ... The only hard bit will be finding a 2.1 with a decent bosch pump.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    my sister if she drove the car as a normal person would get 35-40mpg from her 505

    around town it used to get high 20's

    i'm damn sure it was better than 19sec 0-100 as well, i'll have to ask her

    it wasn't fast but it really wasn't that slow either, no where near as bad as a 504. a standard 203 would eat a 504 diesel alive they are that bad
    3 x '78 604 SL

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    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Magazine Article: 505 TD

    Surely the petrol cars didn't get much worse fuel economy

    seeya,
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Magazine Article: 505 TD

    Surely the petrol cars didn't get much worse fuel economy

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    I agree, I did a trip in a brand new 505SRDT auto with three up and got 28 mpg cruising at 100 km/h.
    Did the same sort of trip once again three people with luggage the year after in a brand new SR and got the same economy.
    Considering the performance was the same why bother with the diesel?
    Other experiences in autos have confirmed these numbers.
    The official Peugeot figures for these early diesels show no appreciable advantage over the petrol models except for city use.
    Graham

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    I agree, I did a trip in a brand new 505SRDT auto with three up and got 28 mpg cruising at 100 km/h.
    Did the same sort of trip once again three people with luggage the year after in a brand new SR and got the same economy.
    Considering the performance was the same why bother with the diesel?
    Other experiences in autos have confirmed these numbers.
    The official Peugeot figures for these early diesels show no appreciable advantage over the petrol models except for city use.
    Graham
    This is the "ultimate" diesel of it's time ...... I had a laugh at this either way .... I'd love to get one of these. 8seats, plenty of space @ 40mpg around town.

    http://jalopnik.com/5739344/for-7500...miliale-affair

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
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    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    My first car was a SRDTurbo 5 speed. It was terrific car on a trip, very relaxed cruising and easy overtaking. Not so quick off the line though, which was why I sold the car after 11 months of ownership. Hey I was 20 years old! I bought the car because I was so impressed with the comfy seats and superb ride. It had 195/75 tyres on 14 inch alloys and those big donuts meant NOTHING got through to the cabin. It would soak up everything on the roughest road you could find. It had done 340,000 km and was as tight as a drum, never a rattle or squeak.

    Handling was great on the open road, the car would sweep around corners with great stability. Tighter corners were taken with lots of bodyroll but plenty of grip too.

    A great car really, and would still be my pick for any long trip.
    John W

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    I agree, I did a trip in a brand new 505SRDT auto with three up and got 28 mpg cruising at 100 km/h.
    Did the same sort of trip once again three people with luggage the year after in a brand new SR and got the same economy.
    Considering the performance was the same why bother with the diesel?
    Other experiences in autos have confirmed these numbers.
    The official Peugeot figures for these early diesels show no appreciable advantage over the petrol models except for city use.
    Graham
    Admittedly I've never owned an auto diesel but I've had a NA 2.3ltr 504 and a 505 turbo 2.5 and I've never had worse than 7ltrs/100km, country or city.

    Wait, I did regularly get 9 ltrs/100km for a 2.3ltr but that was in the 2.5 tonne camper van...

    The 505 SR that my old man had struggled to do 500km on a tank despite frequent tune ups at the mechanics, the 504 diesel we also owned at the same time that only ever needed an oil and a filter would always do around 700kms (regardless of city or country) despite a smaller tank.

    Don't get me started on my coupe which drinks like a fish despite having a tiny single throat solex and 1.8ltrs. Admittedly it's probably badly out of tune but badly out of tune is something that simply doesn't happen to a diesel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by peujohn View Post
    It had 195/75 tyres on 14 inch alloys and those big donuts meant NOTHING got through to the cabin.
    I've got 195/60s on 15s on my 505 and I'm no where near as impressed as my old 504 on 185/75s on 14s. The cabin isolation from the engine is miles ahead of the 504 though and on a par with my Dad's 407hdi, slightly louder than the 407 at idle, quieter at load.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uffee View Post
    Admittedly I've never owned an auto diesel but I've had a NA 2.3ltr 504 and a 505 turbo 2.5 and I've never had worse than 7ltrs/100km, country or city.

    Wait, I did regularly get 9 ltrs/100km for a 2.3ltr but that was in the 2.5 tonne camper van...

    The 505 SR that my old man had struggled to do 500km on a tank despite frequent tune ups at the mechanics, the 504 diesel we also owned at the same time that only ever needed an oil and a filter would always do around 700kms (regardless of city or country) despite a smaller tank.

    Don't get me started on my coupe which drinks like a fish despite having a tiny single throat solex and 1.8ltrs. Admittedly it's probably badly out of tune but badly out of tune is something that simply doesn't happen to a diesel.
    Similar results with a SRDT powered 505 wagon, and this had had a lot of work done to it to try and improve its economy.

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    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Your biggest problem is you bought the wrong car. If you want a car of that vintage that has a diesel ..... you must find a Citroen CX. In it's time it won nearly every economy and speed passenger deisel car record in the world. Capable of 195km/h and 0-100 in about 10.5seconds (rather than the 19seconds of the poogoe) and 42mpg (rather than 28mpg of the 505) .... there really isn't a comparison at all to be made. Ones barely average at best, the other is excpetional in every way Good luck finding one that hasn't already done 3,000,000km 'cos they drive so well though
    Interesting then that in the UK when I was looking for an old motorhome to buy, I saw heaps of Citroen C25D's that had the naturally aspirated engine as used in the CX2500D. Several of them had had their engines and gearboxes replaced with Peugeot 405 or 306 diesel drivetrain, because they were a fairly straightforward fit, made more power and torque despite being 600cc smaller and were apparently much more reliable.

    What was even more amazing was how rough some of the conversions were!!

    As for the rest of this discussion, my 505 TD wagon gets about 7.5 litres per hundred around town, between 5.5 and 6.6 litres per hundred on the highway sitting on the speed limit according to the GPS. I have owned 505 GR's, SR's, GTi's and SRDTurbos, and the diesels, properly tuned and driven, are in a different league.

    Diesels don't like revs, pumping losses are too great with their high compression ratios. Hence a diesel engine revving high will come close to a petrol engine's consumption under the same load. A 505 diesel is not geared for economy at high speeds. The petrol doesn't need to be.

    If you drive as economically as you can, yes, you can get a petrol 505 to approach consumption figures of their diesel counterparts in everyday use. But if you drive the diesel frugally, nothing comes close.

    Apples and oranges.
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  21. #21
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    Interesting then that in the UK when I was looking for an old motorhome to buy, I saw heaps of Citroen C25D's that had the naturally aspirated engine as used in the CX2500D. Several of them had had their engines and gearboxes replaced with Peugeot 405 or 306 diesel drivetrain, because they were a fairly straightforward fit, made more power and torque despite being 600cc smaller and were apparently much more reliable.

    What was even more amazing was how rough some of the conversions were!!

    As for the rest of this discussion, my 505 TD wagon gets about 7.5 litres per hundred around town, between 5.5 and 6.6 litres per hundred on the highway sitting on the speed limit according to the GPS. I have owned 505 GR's, SR's, GTi's and SRDTurbos, and the diesels, properly tuned and driven, are in a different league.

    Diesels don't like revs, pumping losses are too great with their high compression ratios. Hence a diesel engine revving high will come close to a petrol engine's consumption under the same load. A 505 diesel is not geared for economy at high speeds. The petrol doesn't need to be.

    If you drive as economically as you can, yes, you can get a petrol 505 to approach consumption figures of their diesel counterparts in everyday use. But if you drive the diesel frugally, nothing comes close.

    Apples and oranges.
    The N/A motors are complete slugs The C35's only got the very early diesel motors (buttercup bob has one). Amazingly slow and sedate in what is basically a small truck.

    The 2.5 TD turbo II is the one to get ... sadly a whole batch of them had blocks made from recycled steel so they got a bad name for reliability early on due to the block allowing oil to mix with coolant.

    Your talking about one of these fitted with a N/A diesel motor right ??



    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts stuartb's Avatar
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    A 1/4 mile drag beween a diesel auto 505 and a 2 litre auto wagon 505 would be an interesting sight if you had a couple of hours to spend. My Kubota tractor would be in the running against them

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    Fellow Frogger! tomb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuartb View Post
    A 1/4 mile drag beween a diesel auto 505 and a 2 litre auto wagon 505 would be an interesting sight if you had a couple of hours to spend. My Kubota tractor would be in the running against them

    the diesel would win that

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomb View Post
    the diesel would win that
    which one...the kubota?

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    you have to remenber in frog land the diesel was the taxi drivers prefered cars the only way to survive as a pedestrian in a city like paris is to ear the cars comming ...my oncle hade one as a ute (he have a fruit market)it was really let down wen the car died att 650000kms

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