Mi16x4 MegaSquirt
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default Mi16x4 MegaSquirt

    Hey Guys

    Does anyone have experience with MegaSquirt? I'm looking at using it on the Trump (for the charged RV8 i'm planning to put in it), the BX 16v (as I'm getting a set of quad bodies), and also the 4bie (i'm planning to charge it but I think the car would go better/faster with a proper EMS in there anyway)

    I need some help choosing all the bit's I will need. For the pug I'm thinking

    MSIII

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    http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasqu...case-p-419.html

    MAP sensor with barometric correction upgrade

    http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/mapdadd...tion-p-117.html

    Intake air temp sensor

    http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/gm-open...ctor-p-116.html

    Coil on plug x4 (Do I need to use something like Bosch BIP373 with these?)

    http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/ign1fd-...coil-p-428.html

    Wiring Harness

    http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/1239-me...ready-p-43.html

    I will be using a wide band lambda sensor and already have a throttle position sensor (Also have instructions on making a digital AFR display).

    What else will I need to go distributorless ignition? Hall sensor (inlcuded with the MSIII? "•Hall Sensor/Coil(-) and VR Sensor Ignition Trigger Components")

    The crank sensor and coolant sensor can be re-used?

    I have only a very limited idea of what I need/am looking at/am doing so would greatly appreciate if anyone who has experience with this could help me choose the components I need.

    Ta
    Cam

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by cammmy View Post
    Hey Guys

    Does anyone have experience with MegaSquirt? I'm looking at using it on the Trump (for the charged RV8 i'm planning to put in it), the BX 16v (as I'm getting a set of quad bodies), and also the 4bie (i'm planning to charge it but I think the car would go better/faster with a proper EMS in there anyway)

    I need some help choosing all the bit's I will need. For the pug I'm thinking

    MSIII

    http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasqu...case-p-419.html

    MAP sensor with barometric correction upgrade

    http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/mapdadd...tion-p-117.html

    Intake air temp sensor

    http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/gm-open...ctor-p-116.html

    Coil on plug x4 (Do I need to use something like Bosch BIP373 with these?)

    http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/ign1fd-...coil-p-428.html

    Wiring Harness

    http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/1239-me...ready-p-43.html

    I will be using a wide band lambda sensor and already have a throttle position sensor (Also have instructions on making a digital AFR display).

    What else will I need to go distributorless ignition? Hall sensor (inlcuded with the MSIII? "•Hall Sensor/Coil(-) and VR Sensor Ignition Trigger Components")

    The crank sensor and coolant sensor can be re-used?

    I have only a very limited idea of what I need/am looking at/am doing so would greatly appreciate if anyone who has experience with this could help me choose the components I need.

    Ta
    Cam
    No need for Hall sensor, just use the original crank angle sensor and 60-2 flywheel.
    This will drive both the fuel and ignition sides of the MS.
    Easiest way is to use the original HT only dissy and I can't see any disadvantages in this.
    If you want to go wasted spark you could use a 205 Si or similar (306 1.8 8 valve?) coil pack.
    With the early MS (1 or 2) you would then need to add another output switching transistor to the PCB and load up MS extra firmware. The MS3 may already have this capability.
    Haven't looked into coil on plug but I'm sure MS3 will cater for this as its pretty common these days.
    Reuse coolant sensor.
    You will need a wide band O2 sensor controller as a seperate unit, I haven't seen any mention of this with the MS3. This a reasonably complex device.
    You could reuse most of the Mi16 harness, maybe if you want wasted spark this would tip the balance towards replacing this.
    Air temp sensor $30.
    MAP sensor included on MS PCB.
    I have done quite a few Peugeots including Mi16s.
    Can you assemble the kit, if you have to pay someone to do it for you maybe best to buy one already assembled, don't know how they do it for the price, must have some low paid workers.
    Graham

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger!
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    A few people have set up MS around here, but I haven't seen anyone go MS3. The MS2 in my 505GTI is already twiddling it's virtual thumbs waiting for something interesting to happen. Never does.

    Anyhow, should be fun. Not sure whether you need the IAT sensor -- you might be able to reuse the one you have. Pretty sure you don't need the fancy MAP sensor -- the one that comes standard is good for up to 2.5bar IIRC. Then again, the baro correction might be useful -- NZ's mountains are a bit more impressive than ours.

    Haven't done COP myself, but 3 extra BIP373s would probably be the cheapest way to go. I think you'd want to put all four on a separate circuit board somewhere in the engine bay near the coils.

    Wiring harness -- again, the ready made one may not be right for you. For one thing, you'll probably be able to reuse some of the wires already in your loom. For another, if you're doing COP and (I guess) sequential injection, there may be some shuffling of the wires in the standard connector. Then again, I think the MS3 has a separate connection for the fancy things, so maybe you won't be doing so much tweaking. FWIW, I just went with their bundle of 18" long labelled wires and soldered it up for myself.

    You existing TPS and wide band lambda sensor can almost certainly be used. Likewise coolant temp sensor. You won't really need an AFR meter if you're willing to have the laptop sitting beside you.

    To go distributorless, you'll want a good toothed wheel crankshaft position sensor setup. Not sure what your engine comes with, but a 36-1 or 60-1 toothed wheel seems the popular choice. You'll need suitable coil packs too of course.

    I have a couple of other pieces of advice.

    • Check out the forums at http:/www.msextra.com/. This is where the developers who wrote the firmware for MS3 hang out, and they're very helpful.
    • Go injection only at first (I didn't). Even if a few things aren't right, the engine will probably still fire up and you'll have a chance to troubleshoot the various sensors -- especially the crank position sensor.
    • Don't do what I did at first and use an existing power source -- hook it up through a relay just like the instructions say. The MS makes several adjustments based on its input voltage so you want the voltage to your coils, injectors and MS all to be from the one source.


    Have fun,

    Rob.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by robs View Post
    A few people have set up MS around here, but I haven't seen anyone go MS3. The MS2 in my 505GTI is already twiddling it's virtual thumbs waiting for something interesting to happen. Never does.

    Anyhow, should be fun. Not sure whether you need the IAT sensor -- you might be able to reuse the one you have. Pretty sure you don't need the fancy MAP sensor -- the one that comes standard is good for up to 2.5bar IIRC. Then again, the baro correction might be useful -- NZ's mountains are a bit more impressive than ours.

    Haven't done COP myself, but 3 extra BIP373s would probably be the cheapest way to go. I think you'd want to put all four on a separate circuit board somewhere in the engine bay near the coils.

    Wiring harness -- again, the ready made one may not be right for you. For one thing, you'll probably be able to reuse some of the wires already in your loom. For another, if you're doing COP and (I guess) sequential injection, there may be some shuffling of the wires in the standard connector. Then again, I think the MS3 has a separate connection for the fancy things, so maybe you won't be doing so much tweaking. FWIW, I just went with their bundle of 18" long labelled wires and soldered it up for myself.

    You existing TPS and wide band lambda sensor can almost certainly be used. Likewise coolant temp sensor. You won't really need an AFR meter if you're willing to have the laptop sitting beside you.

    To go distributorless, you'll want a good toothed wheel crankshaft position sensor setup. Not sure what your engine comes with, but a 36-1 or 60-1 toothed wheel seems the popular choice. You'll need suitable coil packs too of course.

    I have a couple of other pieces of advice.

    • Check out the forums at http:/www.msextra.com/. This is where the developers who wrote the firmware for MS3 hang out, and they're very helpful.
    • Go injection only at first (I didn't). Even if a few things aren't right, the engine will probably still fire up and you'll have a chance to troubleshoot the various sensors -- especially the crank position sensor.
    • Don't do what I did at first and use an existing power source -- hook it up through a relay just like the instructions say. The MS makes several adjustments based on its input voltage so you want the voltage to your coils, injectors and MS all to be from the one source.


    Have fun,

    Rob.
    Existing Mi16 lamda sensor is narrow band.
    60-2 is standard in all Peugeots of this era.
    Graham

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Existing Mi16 lamda sensor is narrow band.
    60-2 is standard in all Peugeots of this era.
    Graham
    Yes indeed -- I should have said the WB lambda sensor he was planning to use (and of course you're right Graham, it'll only be useful if it includes a controller. I was imagining something like the Innovate LC-1 that DIYAutoTune sells).

    Being a RWD only Pugger, I'm afraid I don't know much about these new-fangled machines. Anyhow, a 60-2 wheel is supported by MS3 and should make for very stable timing. To go distributorless, a cam sensor of some sort would be needed too.

    Have fun,

    Rob.

  6. #6
    Tadpole
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    You can use any MAP sensor and temp sensors if you calibrate them for MSI or MSII.

    Before I tried to start my first MS install. I checked the ignition trigger set up with a timing light while the injectors were disconnected, Once timing was knon to be good, then the MS docs give good advice by using a base map and tweak the req_fuel to get it started and the progress from there.

  7. #7
    Tadpole
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    Thanks for the advice guys. Mine is an early D6C so no lambda sensor as standard. I'll have to source a wide band.

    The MAP upgrade is just for the barometric correction. This car is going to be used as a race car and my favourite kind of race is hill-climb

    I have people who will help me assemble the kit.

    I would like to remove the distributor (partly because the caps cost $150 each over here) but I guess I can take care of that after the fuel. I have heard these motors respond well to improved spark setups.

    When I'm not at work I'll have a go over the list. Any links to specific parts you guys have mentioned would be really great.

    I'll probably just mirror the setup for the Valver but minus the MAP upgrade etc

    Thanks
    Cam

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by cammmy View Post
    Thanks for the advice guys. Mine is an early D6C so no lambda sensor as standard. I'll have to source a wide band.

    The MAP upgrade is just for the barometric correction. This car is going to be used as a race car and my favourite kind of race is hill-climb

    I have people who will help me assemble the kit.

    I would like to remove the distributor (partly because the caps cost $150 each over here) but I guess I can take care of that after the fuel. I have heard these motors respond well to improved spark setups.

    When I'm not at work I'll have a go over the list. Any links to specific parts you guys have mentioned would be really great.

    I'll probably just mirror the setup for the Valver but minus the MAP upgrade etc

    Thanks
    Cam
    Normally for a competition car you would not bother about the O2 sensor and simply tune the car on a dyno and run open loop.
    One thing with the wide band sensor though is that you can self tune the car, is this was what you're thinking?
    Try EFI Hardware 61 0398735177 for all EFI related components.
    Graham

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Dyno tuning is the way to go for competition. A WB lambda sensor in the loop can help keep the tune optimal. When you dyno tune without a WB, you work out the optimal VE value. Unless you have everything perfect, these optimal values will be (not necessarily slightly) different under different weather conditions. When you dyno tune with a WB, you're working out the optimal AFR which should be much more stable with the weather. The MS can then maintain these optimal ratios with lambda feedback.

    As I mentioned, the Innovate LC-1 is pretty good value. Mind you, looking at the reviews there, maybe they've gone off song. Anyhow, I'm happy with mine.

    Have fun,

    Rob.

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    I've never really been a fan of MS, mostly because I'm a Haltech dealer. It's really a case of getting what you pay for however. I'd probably buy a quality 2nd hand ECU before going the MS route, but what ever floats your boat.

    In regards to ignition, the easiest way forward is to just run the 60-2 input and wire up four LS1 (or LS2) coils in two lots of parallel, to achieve wasted spark. The coils have inbuilt ignitors so the wiring is simple, the trigger taken direct from the ECU. In normal wasted spark applications where a double ended coil is used to fire two cylinders, only one cylinder receives the optimum spark as the current is reversed in one plug. In an LS1 situation, both coils fire at their optimum as only the trigger side is in parallel.

    The coils are easily mounted on strut brace in a race car situation. You can get custom Magnecor leads made for approx. $25 each provided you supply a set of Mi16 leads that the plug insulators can be salvaged from.

    Good luck!

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    I forgot to add I've also been happy with my Innovate LC-1. The only problem I've had was my own fault from drowning a sensor. It was easily and cheaply replaced from here: http://www.oxygensensor.net/widebandsensors.php

    I've also added the LogWorks3 Dashboard, which allows the AFR readout to be read on the screen rather than on another device. Useful regardless of the ECU type!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Mi16x4 MegaSquirt-logworks3.jpg  

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  12. #12
    Tadpole
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    Thanks for the advice. The LS1 coil packs sound like a good way to go.

    I was thinking of self-tuning as best I can and then going to a dyno to try perfect it. Also keen to A: have the ECU be able to self-adjust for different conditions and B: Keep an eye on it to make sure it's not going too lean.

    I'm looking at racing more for fun than any sense of competition, so I'm not looking to throw money at other people to try and achieve every last scrap of power. As long as it runs well i'll be happy enough (for a while at least)

    I'm thinking mega squirt as it seems to be one of the easiest to tune yourself, is one of the most cost effective and has a lot of features. You hear mixed things but the good feedback outweighs the bad and it also comes down to who assembles it. I know a couple of electronic engineers who have offered to help me in that department.

    I also need three of them so cost is a big factor.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by cammmy View Post
    Thanks for the advice. The LS1 coil packs sound like a good way to go.

    I was thinking of self-tuning as best I can and then going to a dyno to try perfect it. Also keen to A: have the ECU be able to self-adjust for different conditions and B: Keep an eye on it to make sure it's not going too lean.

    I'm looking at racing more for fun than any sense of competition, so I'm not looking to throw money at other people to try and achieve every last scrap of power. As long as it runs well i'll be happy enough (for a while at least)

    I'm thinking mega squirt as it seems to be one of the easiest to tune yourself, is one of the most cost effective and has a lot of features. You hear mixed things but the good feedback outweighs the bad and it also comes down to who assembles it. I know a couple of electronic engineers who have offered to help me in that department.

    I also need three of them so cost is a big factor.
    Some people seem to be against Megasquirt but I've never heard of any reason for this.
    My only complaint is that they seem to be prone to interference on the TPS line and need careful earthing to eliminate this.
    Every tuner who has tuned mine has been happy, one was particularly happy with the layout of the ignition tuning screen.
    To me the open nature of the Megasquirt enterprise means thet you have experts all around the world contributing to make the product as good as it can be.
    I have built a few now and have had no hardware faults at all, just as well as three of them have been used in outback endurance rallies!
    Graham

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