light 205 for 'fun-kana' GTI or Si?
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts Isis's Avatar
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    Default light 205 for 'fun-kana' GTI or Si?

    We have a farm outside Melbourne upon which I am thinking about creating a dirt rally track - hire a grader etc. The idea is to have a machine for general fun thrashing around, learning to drift sideways etc.

    I initially thought that a dirt go-kart or those mini versions of a dakar buggy would be best but of course they are not cheap and little to do unless I get a pricey kit.

    So, thoughts are to buy an S1 GTI OR an Si, strip it to within an inch of its life (no rego or race constraints here) learn to weld in a cage myself, cheap bucket seats/harnesses (need a few more tools) and rely on the super low weight for performance rather than feel the need to go beyond standard mechanicals.

    I am thinking that the ideal car would be an S1 GTI with a poor interior and exterior, but reasonable mechanics for $1000 or less and go from there. BUT perhaps an Si is a better bet for the same money? Either version will end up weighing nothing so the power factor less important.
    I passed up such a GTI last year for $400 so I know they are around. The idea is to have a fun, slow project with my son, learn to drive and not set any speed records.

    Most of it is an excuse to wield the angle grinder, welder and spray gun without much cost over time and no pressure to produce something that only needs to be safe and not much else. Over time I would pick up some second hand parts to slowly improve it, the concept is wide open but on a tiny budget.

    The car could get down to having no windscreen, or dash, or bonnet - what would a 650kg 'GTI' feel like? or am I better to aim at keeping the dust out - perspex to replace glass etc?

    This thread is generally on the money but a bit more serious:
    http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index...pic=65597&st=0

    Apologies to the 'how dare you do that to a GTI crowd'

    views?

    cheers
    Ice

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    yeap - thats what we did on the farm.

    Remove seats (passenger) glass, head and tail lights, carpets and axe the exhaust off!!!

    We ran heaps into the ground.

    The fastest and most reliable was a 75 Honda Civic and a 92 Charade. We also had a quick mini.

    The worst - Hillman Avenger (horrible) and a citroen which never started.

    You basically set a few rules - we never had a straight faster than 3rd gear and always had a helmet and seat belt to keep it sensible.

  3. #3
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    Sounds like fun.
    If you ever need another pair of hands PM me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    We have a farm outside Melbourne upon which I am thinking about creating a dirt rally track - hire a grader etc. The idea is to have a machine for general fun thrashing around, learning to drift sideways etc.

    I initially thought that a dirt go-kart or those mini versions of a dakar buggy would be best but of course they are not cheap and little to do unless I get a pricey kit.

    So, thoughts are to buy an S1 GTI OR an Si, strip it to within an inch of its life (no rego or race constraints here) learn to weld in a cage myself, cheap bucket seats/harnesses (need a few more tools) and rely on the super low weight for performance rather than feel the need to go beyond standard mechanicals.

    I am thinking that the ideal car would be an S1 GTI with a poor interior and exterior, but reasonable mechanics for $1000 or less and go from there. BUT perhaps an Si is a better bet for the same money? Either version will end up weighing nothing so the power factor less important.
    I passed up such a GTI last year for $400 so I know they are around. The idea is to have a fun, slow project with my son, learn to drive and not set any speed records.

    Most of it is an excuse to wield the angle grinder, welder and spray gun without much cost over time and no pressure to produce something that only needs to be safe and not much else. Over time I would pick up some second hand parts to slowly improve it, the concept is wide open but on a tiny budget.

    The car could get down to having no windscreen, or dash, or bonnet - what would a 650kg 'GTI' feel like? or am I better to aim at keeping the dust out - perspex to replace glass etc?

    This thread is generally on the money but a bit more serious:
    http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index...pic=65597&st=0

    Apologies to the 'how dare you do that to a GTI crowd'

    views?

    cheers
    Ice
    You didn't see my series 1 GTi for $600 then? Still available
    Actually an Si would be better, they are much more competitive in dirt motorkhanas partly because of the power steering and partly because of the softer suspension giving more grip. There are a few people competing in Sis in Victorian State Championships and are doing very well, something that rarely happened when people ran GTis.
    I'm running my GTi engined Si at a VCAS autocross round on Saturday so can confirm how it compares to a GTi at my favourite track.
    I know of a perfect car for you, straight and complete although paint is bad, even has a new alternator, and $500.
    Talk to Neil at Hartrick European Surrey Hills.
    If you don't want to set any speed records don't do a thing to it and after you've practised at home bring it out to some club motorkhanas.
    Graham
    Last edited by GRAHAM WALLIS; 4th May 2011 at 05:10 PM.

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts Isis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 205 Maxi View Post
    yeap - thats what we did on the farm.

    Remove seats (passenger) glass, head and tail lights, carpets and axe the exhaust off!!!

    We ran heaps into the ground.

    The fastest and most reliable was a 75 Honda Civic and a 92 Charade. We also had a quick mini.

    The worst - Hillman Avenger (horrible) and a citroen which never started.

    You basically set a few rules - we never had a straight faster than 3rd gear and always had a helmet and seat belt to keep it sensible.

    Yeah, theres probably other car types to consider but I feel I know l slightly more than nothing about 205's, so thats the start. This seems like the cheapest M/sport fun I can think of.
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  6. #6
    1000+ Posts Isis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    You didn't see my series 1 GTi for $600 then? Still available
    Actually an Si would be better, they are much more competitive in dirt motorkhanas partly because of the power steering and partly because of the softer suspension giving more grip. There are a few people competing in Sis in Victorian State Championships and are doing very well, something that rarely happened when people ran GTis.
    I'm running my GTi engined Si at a VCAS autocross round round on Saturday so can confirm how it compares to a GTi at my favourite track.
    I know of a perfect car for you, straight and complete although paint is bad, even has a new alternator, and $500.
    Talk to Neil at Hartrick European Surrey Hills.
    If you don't want to set any speed records don't do a thing to it and after you've practised at home bring it out to some club motorkhanas.
    Graham
    Thanks Graham, I knew you would be all over this topic! I am sure you are right about the benefits of both cars. In my mind, an Si will not have had 20 years of serious punishment like the typical low grade S1 GTI. The low budget means not having to fix stuff all the time.

    I like the idea of the Si soft suspension. and the motorkhanas, but all in good time.

    I guess one question Graham. If I get an Si, is it still a good platform for 'improvements' -you have a GTI engine in yours, which snswers most of my quesiton.

    Is Neils an Si or GTI?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    Thanks Graham, I knew you would be all over this topic! I am sure you are right about the benefits of both cars. In my mind, an Si will not have had 20 years of serious punishment like the typical low grade S1 GTI. The low budget means not having to fix stuff all the time.

    I like the idea of the Si soft suspension. and the motorkhanas, but all in good time.

    I guess one question Graham. If I get an Si, is it still a good platform for 'improvements' -you have a GTI engine in yours, which snswers most of my quesiton.

    Is Neils an Si or GTI?
    Neil's is an Si.
    The Sis are better sorted than a series 1 GTi being 1992 models as well as having had an easier life and I've found them super reliable.
    You can get them as close to a GTi as you want by simply changing bits.
    Possibly you may have to do a little work on the rear arches to fit larger tyres but I haven't had that problem yet, running 15s on the front and 14s on the rear. The Mi16 wheels I have are set in too far, so not an issue with outer guard clearance.
    Graham

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    1000+ Posts Isis's Avatar
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    "The Sis are better sorted than a series 1 GTi being 1992 models as well as having had an easier life and I've found them super reliable."

    That is an interesting point. It makes sense that a 1992 car will have improvements over a 1988 car, regardless of model comparison - do you know what the 'better sorted' aspects are exactly?

    I am going to look at Neils car tomorrow.

    Are there a good range of choices in nobbly rally tyres for the 14's and 15' wheels but not 13's? Are 13's or 14's standard on an Si?
    S3 205 GTI x 4 and getting lower
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    2013 Fiesta ST
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    "The Sis are better sorted than a series 1 GTi being 1992 models as well as having had an easier life and I've found them super reliable."

    That is an interesting point. It makes sense that a 1992 car will have improvements over a 1988 car, regardless of model comparison - do you know what the 'better sorted' aspects are exactly?

    I am going to look at Neils car tomorrow.

    Are there a good range of choices in nobbly rally tyres for the 14's and 15' wheels but not 13's? Are 13's or 14's standard on an Si?
    You can get 13 inch rally tyrs, made for cars like Escorts.
    Otherwise just fit a set of 405 steels and run 14s.
    You will pay close to double the cost of the car just for one set of rally tyres.

    Things that come to mind are the dash (obviously), clutch linkages, better BE3 gearbox, better seating position, standard P-Steering, engine management, exhaust manifold.

    Graham

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    al
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    I love 205s, but wouldn't choose one for thrashing alone on loose surfaces.

    I personally find my 505 infinitely more fun. You have to be fairly committed to get a 205 dancing on gravel, where rwd allows much more opportunities to play. Just my opinion anyway.

    Or this... i would kill for one of these. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQgmdHzqtqA
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    A lot of junior sedans in speedway run snow tyres in 13". They're inexpensive with plenty of traction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by al View Post
    I love 205s, but wouldn't choose one for thrashing alone on loose surfaces.

    I personally find my 505 infinitely more fun. You have to be fairly committed to get a 205 dancing on gravel, where rwd allows much more opportunities to play. Just my opinion anyway.

    Or this... i would kill for one of these. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQgmdHzqtqA
    Sorry Al but I totally disagree, I would never pick a 505 over a 205 for fast driving on dirt.
    205s are just so easy to drive, ultra controllable oversteer and very quick, my GTi was right up with the quickest 2wd cars at state championship autocross events. I think the Si is even better, will find out on Saturday. I think a lot of people have done a few mods based on what is common practice for track work which degrade the car somewhat when driven on dirt. My GTi had standard suspension except for the Konis and group N strut tops.

    By comparison 505s have roll oversteer which slows you down, although having said this I am building one for endurance rallies, let's hope they run some before the outback is completely off limits

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    Plenty of rally competitors have a stock pile if used rally tyres they're happy to give away or sell at a bargain basement price. They're no good for a full event, but okay for bashing around on
    Fight for your opinions, but do not believe that they contain the whole truth, or the only truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Sorry Al but I totally disagree, I would never pick a 505 over a 205 for fast driving on dirt.
    205s are just so easy to drive, ultra controllable oversteer and very quick, my GTi was right up with the quickest 2wd cars at state championship autocross events. I think the Si is even better, will find out on Saturday. I think a lot of people have done a few mods based on what is common practice for track work which degrade the car somewhat when driven on dirt. My GTi had standard suspension except for the Konis and group N strut tops.

    By comparison 505s have roll oversteer which slows you down, although having said this I am building one for endurance rallies, let's hope they run some before the outback is completely off limits
    I agree too. I find the mi16 much better to flog on gravel than the 505. More settled. Power deficiencies aside.

    RWD cars are fun though
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    I'd go for a Pulsar (or similar) as they will be cheaper to fix when they break - and more durable than a 205. Even a stripped out VN Commodore (try and find a shitter from a grommet bogan kid on Ebay, with a whiteline kit) - as they weigh 1300kg!

    Al - that Escort looks amazing!
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    Quote Originally Posted by STALLED View Post
    I'd go for a Pulsar (or similar) as they will be cheaper to fix when they break - and more durable than a 205. Even a stripped out VN Commodore (try and find a shitter from a grommet bogan kid on Ebay, with a whiteline kit) - as they weigh 1300kg!

    Al - that Escort looks amazing!
    I've found the 205s to be bullet proof, I always have a laugh at people with Japanese cars replacing driveshafts and gearboxes.
    Same as my wifes Astra, just two ignition switches and a coil pack failure in 11 years and the service centre told her she should have bought a Corolla, more reliable you know.
    Graham

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    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    In your position, I'd get a RWD, no contest.
    I'd probably have a FWD too for when i wanted to go fast (and then the pug would be no1 choice), but the RWD would be my car of choice for just goosing around.

    I wouldn't especially care what it was, but say a commodore ute with a towbar could double as a farm hack when you are not rolling it.
    Also something like that is easier and cheaper to cage.

    For a basher, a towbar is an asset for when you need to quickly tow it out of the mud or the bushes. Gives the tractor a good point to pull from.

    I've got a paddock and a handfull of cars to bash, and I'd rather take the LWB pajero in RWD out for a bash than I would the fuego. You can only do so many handbrake induced oversteers before the novelty wears off. Either that or you are going so damn fast you are shitting yourself at what will happen if it bites in.
    However I'm yet to get bored with drifting and abusing a RWD slowly.



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    al
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Sorry Al but I totally disagree, I would never pick a 505 over a 205 for fast driving on dirt.
    I don't think the brief is to go fast though - it is about fun.

    I would take the 205 over the other two if i had to get somewhere in a hurry or compete, but for fun there is no contest - for me at least. One of my most memorable experiences in a car was the dirt roads on the back of Phillip Island in the middle of winter in the 505. You can have a great time at 20kph!

    If i had to choose anything to fill this brief it would be an mx5 or Rx7. I think they have the best of both worlds and would be infinitely more fun than an si - as much as i love them.
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    $50 old RWD Carolla out of the classifieds.

    Thats what we used to do. Will be infinatly more fun than any front wheel drive can be on the dirt. No need to strip it or cage it or anything, just go as is untill it stops, then get a new one. Thats what me and my mates did.

    Enough said!
    Lets just say we have a few pugs about!

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    cdt
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    trouble is those old RWD corolla's are now a hot favourite with the young drifters and they
    dont come for $50 any more,the same can be said for almost any old jap RWD.

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    Yep, I would say for the fun factor in bashing cars, the RWD Corollas/Coronas are hard to beat. Power doesn't matter anyway.
    Price is pretty good too if you get a giveaway. Not likely anyone would give away a Pug.
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    Very tempted ... But SWMBO would castrate me if I dragged this home

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...type=1&theater

    why bother with a little FWD shielas car big heavy engine and RWD rules for paddock bashing
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    al
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Yep, I would say for the fun factor in bashing cars, the RWD Corollas/Coronas are hard to beat. Power doesn't matter anyway.
    Price is pretty good too if you get a giveaway. Not likely anyone would give away a Pug.
    Maybe not free, but there are surprisingly good 505s etc out there for sub $500. I got one for $600 a few years back that went straight through a roadworthy and was faultless over a couple of years.

    I think there are two distinct perspectives here. Graham makes perfect sense in describing a serious dirt competition car, but i was certainly picturing a paddock basher.
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    cdt
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    grass sliding gently across a sloping damp paddock just massaging the throttle to keep it out
    there is seriously good fun and teaches the younguns good car control. FWD just wont do
    that unless you apply speed and lots of handbrake.

    cheers

    chris

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts Isis's Avatar
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    I agree with Graham AND the RWD views. I guess I am coming from the love of 205's and going from there. I agree about RWD for the max/slow fun.

    My other crazy idea is to take the light little Si, make it lighter and convert to an electric runabout after I kill the engine or something else expensive, but that is a spanner in the conversation.

    ps. the cheapest MX5 on carsales is $5000. Obviously cheaper ones are around but not a great sign.
    Last edited by Isis; 5th May 2011 at 01:03 PM.
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