505 Wagon economy options
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default 505 Wagon economy options

    froggers

    what's best for getting economy from a 505 wagon auto?

    - gas conversion
    - diesel conversion
    - put a manual box in it
    - don't bother for the cost

    ta

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    Jeremy

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    Quote Originally Posted by robjer View Post
    froggers

    what's best for getting economy from a 505 wagon auto?

    - gas conversion
    - diesel conversion
    - put a manual box in it
    - don't bother for the cost

    ta

    Jeremy
    Cheaper to leave it as it is.
    Manual probably second best bet.
    Graham

  3. #3
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    i'm advised by gas conversion people here in Adelaide that the gov rebate is $1500 until June 30


    falls to $1250 on July 1

    that has to figure on things

    was also told that "we never touch anything European"

    welcome to Astraya!
    Last edited by robjer; 20th April 2011 at 04:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robjer View Post
    i'm advised by gas conversion people here in Adelaide that the gov rebate is $1500 until June 30


    falls to $1250 on July 1

    that has to figure on things

    was also told that "we never touch anything European"

    welcome to Astraya!
    You will get good economy from a diesel and many of us here want a diesel 505 manual or auto wagon- the conversion should be fairly straightforward- but there are several differences between petrol and diesel variants including brakes and suspension (to wit) nothing that can't be handled though (need a donor car). There is also reasonable resale value in the sense that many who know what 505 is like recognise that a 505 diesel estate car is pretty hard to get no matter from whence it came (original versus conversion). I have a 505 turbo diesel sedan and want to convert a wagon using my car.
    Otherwise go for gas. you lose a bit of power but that's about it really- make sure the cooling system is good. They run hotter. The auto should be in reasonable condition but no more so that otherwise.
    The term used by my fellow frogger colleague 'Astraya' is correct- most of the converter businesses are prone to simplistic and simple minded judgement.
    Most of them still believe that a 'Holden' is something other (ie- something made and designed by and for people who live in Australia) than an Opel variant. The term ignorant is a synonamous with Astraya. Sad but true. There are more enlightened souls out there however- perhaps find one by telephoning local businesses in sequence. First tell them a story about a colleague who had his 505 converted to gas last year and it all went well (straightforward). Add to story (embellish) as needed.
    The rebate (through centrelink, my employer) is still available. Get it done quick though as things are likely to change very soon....
    (non confirmed rumour...)

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by robjer View Post
    i'm advised by gas conversion people here in Adelaide that the gov rebate is $1500 until June 30


    falls to $1250 on July 1

    that has to figure on things

    was also told that "we never touch anything European"

    welcome to Astraya!
    I'm advised in Wagga that a gas conversion can be done on the 505 wagon, but will probably cost around $3 000. I wouldn't spend that sort of money and get back only $1 500 from the government.

    The other thing that I'm not keen on losing in my familiale is the remaining luggage space. There isn't a great deal to start with, once all 3 rows of seats are in use, and putting a gas tank in there will further severely limit space.

    My current familiale has a 5 speed box in it, courtesy of the previous owner. I'm not convinced that the fuel economy is that much better than my previous one which had the standard 3 speed auto box. It is more fun to drive, but not that much more economical. (I have to admit, though, that it is hard for me to tell accurately, because the current odometer isn't working well.)

    Out of interest, what fuel economy figures are different people getting from their 505 familiales with whatever combination of engine and gearbox? And what type of driving are you doing - urban or country or mixed?

    Cheers,
    Andrew
    Current cars: Peugeot 307 HDi Touring; Peugeot 306 Cabriolet; Peugeot 406 HDi, Peugeot 505 Familiale
    Previous cars: 1965 Peugeot 404; 1972 Renault 16TS; 1970 Peugeo 504 1800; 1978 Peugeot 504 GL; 1976 Peugeot 504 LTI; 1984 Peugeot 505 Familiale; 1982 Peugeot 604 (converted to TD) 1999 Peugeot 306 Cabriolet

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by 505604 View Post
    Out of interest, what fuel economy figures are different people getting from their 505 familiales with whatever combination of engine and gearbox? And what type of driving are you doing - urban or country or mixed?

    Cheers,
    Andrew
    Well mine's a standard GTI with 4spd auto and I'm getting 12.5l - but that's mostly rural and in the hills. I still need to test it out on the highway at 100km/h on a good run - it ought to be a fair bit better (the owner's manual claims 7.5 I think, but that sounds far fetched...) In comparison, the SRDT (sedan) does just under 8l in the hills and 6.5l out on the road.
    Goonengerry 505


  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! James S's Avatar
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    Default Fuel Economy

    My 88 manual GTI 2.2 petrol wagon gets better fuel economy than my 83 manual 505 STI 2.2 petrol sedan. No surprise there as the STI uses Bosch K-Jetronic mechanical injection.

    The sedan gets just under 11.5l/100km around town (long trips are obviously better but I am not 100% sure what the figure is - probably about 9L/100km).

    My wagon is currently off the road (being fixed slowly) but when it was on the road last year, it was getting closer to 8L/100km on highway trips and about 10L/100kms around town I think. It seemed like it was almost as good as my son's 94 405 SLi manual sedan on the highway trip. I was very surprised at how far it went on a tank when I first picked it up and drove it back from Sydney to Canberra for the first time. It has over 300,000kms on the original engine or so. At that time, the car had a large crack in the inlet rubber bellows, which I have now fixed, so I am hoping to get even better fuel economy in the future but maybe this just affects idle.

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    For the small amount of savings over the possible life of the car, it'd be better to leave it as is.

    Robjer, is it 3 or 4sp auto?

    Try to get hold of a 4sp auto box if you can.

    I can't remember the details exactly but I am fairly sure the later ones will fit early cars, although it has been many years since I dabbled in 505 wagons.

    Our 3 and 4sp wagons were different in economy and the 4sp was a much better drive.

    I'd bet, knowing what 505s are like, slow old beasts, you'd know the gas will kill it's performance, about 10% power, which is heaps to a 505.

    I suggested the 4sp auto if it's a 3sp because it's a almost straight swap.

    Just a suggestion
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    Jeremy, you've probably checked this thread already where we have been having a related parallel discussion.
    vis megasquirt might be the best bet...other than just leaving it as it is and enjoying

  10. #10
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    thanks all - much appreciated

    i don't have a wagon but am considering getting one

    cheers

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    Quote Originally Posted by HONG KONG PUGGY View Post
    For the small amount of savings over the possible life of the car, it'd be better to leave it as is.

    Robjer, is it 3 or 4sp auto?

    Try to get hold of a 4sp auto box if you can.

    I can't remember the details exactly but I am fairly sure the later ones will fit early cars, although it has been many years since I dabbled in 505 wagons.

    Our 3 and 4sp wagons were different in economy and the 4sp was a much better drive.

    I'd bet, knowing what 505s are like, slow old beasts, you'd know the gas will kill it's performance, about 10% power, which is heaps to a 505.

    I suggested the 4sp auto if it's a 3sp because it's a almost straight swap.

    Just a suggestion
    4 speed is physically longer I think so you need a shorter torque tube.
    They do run a 4.8 diff, the car would be too high geared with the 3 speed one.
    You also need a different rear gearbox mount, which is NLA, although PCCV has worked out a way of fixing a worn out one.
    The 4 speed box is not known for its reliablity as compared to the bullet proof 3 speed.
    Graham

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    4 speed is physically longer I think so you need a shorter torque tube.
    They do run a 4.8 diff, the car would be too high geared with the 3 speed one.
    You also need a different rear gearbox mount, which is NLA, although PCCV has worked out a way of fixing a worn out one.
    The 4 speed box is not known for its reliablity as compared to the bullet proof 3 speed.
    Graham
    I agree 100% with Graham, having had both an SR wagon with the old 3 speed and a GTI with the 4 speed auto I'd go for the 3 speed any day of the week.

    I have always found the change on the 4 speed to be very harsh compared to the 3 speed.

    On my old SR in stock condition I managed to get the tuning right and it returned between 9 and 10 litres per 100k's. Don't go messing around putting the wrong carbie on it as it wont help.

    Anyway, best of luck they are a great car to own

    Ben
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  13. #13
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    I have an 89 GTi 5 speed wagon that I'm very impressed with the fuel consumtion and the main reason I still have it. I get regularly 600-700 kms a tank with sporty driving through the mountains of Tassie.
    Great car!


    QUOTE=505604;946561]I'm advised in Wagga that a gas conversion can be done on the 505 wagon, but will probably cost around $3 000. I wouldn't spend that sort of money and get back only $1 500 from the government.

    The other thing that I'm not keen on losing in my familiale is the remaining luggage space. There isn't a great deal to start with, once all 3 rows of seats are in use, and putting a gas tank in there will further severely limit space.

    My current familiale has a 5 speed box in it, courtesy of the previous owner. I'm not convinced that the fuel economy is that much better than my previous one which had the standard 3 speed auto box. It is more fun to drive, but not that much more economical. (I have to admit, though, that it is hard for me to tell accurately, because the current odometer isn't working well.)

    Out of interest, what fuel economy figures are different people getting from their 505 familiales with whatever combination of engine and gearbox? And what type of driving are you doing - urban or country or mixed?

    Cheers,
    Andrew[/QUOTE]

  14. #14
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    yeah i think the manual wagon is the go

    thanks

  15. #15
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    4 speed is physically longer I think so you need a shorter torque tube.
    They do run a 4.8 diff, the car would be too high geared with the 3 speed one.
    You also need a different rear gearbox mount, which is NLA, although PCCV has worked out a way of fixing a worn out one.
    The 4 speed box is not known for its reliablity as compared to the bullet proof 3 speed.
    Graham
    Graham is right, the torque tube is indeed shorter for the longer 4 speed gearbox, but it doesn't stop there. The entire rear mount arrangement is completely different, so much so that the floorpan has been substantially modified between the 3 and 4 speed gearboxes. The easiest way to do the conversion between a 4 speed auto and either the 3 speed auto or the 5 speed manual would be to graft in a section of floor from the car that matches the gearbox. Or just start with the right combination.

    505s can be made to run very economically, but most don't. Lack of maintenance over the past 20+ years has led to air leaks, tired AFMs, etc. But a well looked after 505 wagon is well and truly the most space you will get in a car for the least amount of fuel consumption. Sure, an LPG powered Tarago may be cheaper to run (marginally) but without the range, and are either completely clapped out or hideously expensive.

    I've had both carby and injected 505 (sedans) on LPG, and they were both brilliant, but I fear you would lose the practicality of the wagon by putting a gas tank in the boot. The alternative of course is to do an LPG only conversion, ditch the petrol tank and spare wheel, stick the gas tank underneath and carry a can of tyre-in-a-can. Having done plenty of gas conversions on european cars, I can tell you that there's nothing particularly difficult about them, it is purely a stigma that they carry in this country. To be fair, for local cars you can buy brackets for gas tanks, mixers for specific throttle bodies and wiring looms all set up to suit the common models, so it is all straightforward, so there maybe a touch more fabricating involved in installing it in something not catered for by those kits. Still, there wouldn't be more than 2 hours labour as the difference.

    I went for the turbo diesel route because it is powerful (quicker than a standard petrol wagon, and not at all phased by heavy loads), economical and doesn't lose any space in the boot. I average around town about 8.5-9 litres/100km, and on the highway regularly see 5.5-6 litres/100km. Plus, diesel prices are more predictable, and doesn't follow the weekly yo-yo-ing of petrol prices. Speed is the biggest factor, as the 505 is a long way from the aerodynamics of, say, a 406. The occasional tank of free biodiesel if I'm in the right place at the right time also cuts costs without sacrificing performance or economy. The XD2S engine is also very petrol-like to drive, not like the XD3T which is undeniably tractor-like.
    Scotty

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    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

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    Scotty,
    Did you do the conversion to XD2S in your 505 Familiale? And do it yourself?

    I haven't driven an XD3T, but I did enjoy the XD2S in my 604.

    Andrew
    Current cars: Peugeot 307 HDi Touring; Peugeot 306 Cabriolet; Peugeot 406 HDi, Peugeot 505 Familiale
    Previous cars: 1965 Peugeot 404; 1972 Renault 16TS; 1970 Peugeo 504 1800; 1978 Peugeot 504 GL; 1976 Peugeot 504 LTI; 1984 Peugeot 505 Familiale; 1982 Peugeot 604 (converted to TD) 1999 Peugeot 306 Cabriolet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    505s can be made to run very economically, but most don't. Lack of maintenance over the past 20+ years has led to air leaks, tired AFMs, etc. But a well looked after 505 wagon is well and truly the most space you will get in a car for the least amount of fuel consumption.
    Scotty,

    AFM = air flow meter?

    I'm guessing this would be the first place to look on a standard set up GTI once air leaks have been discounted as a possible reason for high fuel consumption?

    Haynes suggests I will need to learn to use a multi meter in order to test this device...

    Cheers,

    Thom.

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    Andrew,
    yes, i did the conversion, and have covered a lot of ground in that car since. Love it.
    I think I may have seen your diesel 604 around wagga when i used to live there. Was it a white one? If it's the one I'm thinking of then I know where it is now. Sheared tailshaft splines, or something to that effect?

    Thom,

    1. air leaks
    2. vacuum advance diaphragm
    3. afm.

    When I'm not typing from my phone, I'll explain what to look for and how to fix it on the afm. catching a plane to adelaide in a few minutes....
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default 505 eco...?

    Quote Originally Posted by robjer View Post
    i'm advised by gas conversion people here in Adelaide that the gov rebate is $1500 until June 30


    falls to $1250 on July 1

    that has to figure on things

    was also told that "we never touch anything European"

    welcome to Astraya!

    robjer,
    Leave it, seems to be the popular thought.

    ...was also told "we never touch anything European". I would agree with this sentiment. Why should the conversion folk shag around with the Peugeot when they could probably push through two or three Falcons/Holdens in the same time. They could fit tanks and under bonnet gizmos blindfold !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    Thom,

    1. air leaks
    2. vacuum advance diaphragm
    3. afm.

    When I'm not typing from my phone, I'll explain what to look for and how to fix it on the afm. catching a plane to adelaide in a few minutes....
    Thanks Scotty, and when you have a keyboard and 5 minutes that afm advice would be gratefully received! Cheers.

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    Holden have always been an Opel or Chev variant. The grey motor was invented / designed in 1932 in Germany!

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    I wonder where my reply went …
    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    Andrew,
    yes, i did the conversion, and have covered a lot of ground in that car since. Love it.
    I think I may have seen your diesel 604 around wagga when i used to live there. Was it a white one? If it's the one I'm thinking of then I know where it is now. Sheared tailshaft splines, or something to that effect?
    Yes, exactly - sheared tailshaft splines at the gearbox end. For the third time since I'd owned the car.
    Yes, it is/was white. Last I knew, it was hanging around an old farm house near The Rock awaiting yet another tailshaft and maybe some other things?
    I wonder if I know you and your car(s).

    Cheers,
    Andrew
    Current cars: Peugeot 307 HDi Touring; Peugeot 306 Cabriolet; Peugeot 406 HDi, Peugeot 505 Familiale
    Previous cars: 1965 Peugeot 404; 1972 Renault 16TS; 1970 Peugeo 504 1800; 1978 Peugeot 504 GL; 1976 Peugeot 504 LTI; 1984 Peugeot 505 Familiale; 1982 Peugeot 604 (converted to TD) 1999 Peugeot 306 Cabriolet

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