HELP Lucas EPIC to Bosch conversion on 406 2.1TD
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Thread: HELP Lucas EPIC to Bosch conversion on 406 2.1TD

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! 750frog's Avatar
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    Default HELP Lucas EPIC to Bosch conversion on 406 2.1TD

    Anyone done this? I need some advice on what pump to get.
    I already have the injectors from a 1.9TD and all the metal pipes. I know that i will have to make/get the mount for the bosch pump. What else?
    Pics would be great if you can...
    Cheers,

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    Fellow Frogger! andrepug's Avatar
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    If you can find the posts that were lost in the great crash a guy called Julian in SA posted a lot of info about doing this (also WLB-sorry Warwick) Converting using the 405 pump seems to be the way to go. You might want to refer to Morassi and Williams 3/ 3 Techno Park Drv Williamstown, VIC 03 9397 3993 as they have experience in doing this. Also do a search - I found this although only similar; http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/sho...d.php?p=904805
    Last edited by andrepug; 14th April 2011 at 02:52 PM.

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    WLB
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    If you can give me some time, I should be able to find enough info for you from mine and Julian's original posts; even if it means scanning printed pages and posting them here or directly to you.

    I was one of the first to be struck down by the Epic blight, and Julian was one of the first to do a DIY conversion.

    Let me see what I can find, however I'm off to Tassie tomorrow, until late Tuesday.

    If you don't already have the Bosch pump, and you have trouble getting hold of one, let me know - I have two. The only problem is the 2nd spare one is in the UK and cheap shipping takes time.

    Warwick

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    WLB
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    Default Julian's 406 Epic to 405 Bosch diesel conversion

    Okay. Here goes.
    It didn't take me as long to find the printed sheets as I thought it might, so I thought I'd better do this now so you don't have to wait until the middle of next week.

    In order to keep under the file size limit, I've had to scan these in low res B&W. It was easier and quicker to scan the whole page than to do a literal old-fashioned cut and paste on the relevant text portions of each page. Where there is a relevant photo, I'll post a proper colour image later. I have all of Julian's photos, bar one, as we conversed by e-mail on the subject. I will also post his conversion notes that he sent me. They more or less draw the whole job neatly together, more succinctly than the thread.

    The thread ran over 3 web pages and these equated to 22 printed pages. I've numbered them as printed pages, but the post numbers will confirm the correct reading order. The last post by Matt (myshell) is #52, dated 14th September 2009. This probably wasn't the last posted on the thread, but it was pretty much wrapped up by then anyway.

    Warwick
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    WLB
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    Default Photo for Post #4 on Page 3

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    WLB
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    Default Photos for Post #21 on Page 10

    These are DoubleChevron's thumbnails as they appeared in the thread, so it's a scan of a printed web page. Not really of much help unless Shane could repost them if he still has them on files.




    The following are Shane's replacement photos, added 14th June 2011 (See posts #12, #13, and #15 below)











    Last edited by WLB; 15th June 2011 at 05:34 PM.
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    WLB
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    Default Photo for Post #22 on Page 10

    This is the pump from a 405 equivalent Citroen 1.9 turbo diesel that I have sitting unneeded in England.

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    WLB
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    Default Photos for Post #43 on Page 18

    I don't have copies of Julian's jpegs for these photos. This is a scan from the printed web page.

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    WLB
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    Default Text of our e-mails

    Here is a copy and paste of one of our e-mail conversations. It's easier to drop the whole thing in here than go through and extract the important bits. I'm sure Julian won't mind.




    Tuesday 13th Oct, 2009
    Hi Warwick,

    As I write this I am sitting at the library with a camera full of photos but no cable, it is sitting at home...

    The conversion is a very simple process. I took some time as I learnt from many mistakes on the way, and had no-one to guide me with their experiences. I will send you some photos that will give you a little more guidance, but let me give you a few pointers about technical aspects.

    -The pattern of injector pipe unions does change between the Lucas and Bosch pumps, and I will send a photo of this specifically as messing this up would possibly be fatal; think injection at BDC before compression stroke, BANG!
    - You will need 3 x M8x1.5mm bolts with long shafts to lock the cam and pump sprocket down. You will need to slacken off the timing belt tensioner, and then re-tension as you are changing the pump sprockets. This is a pain if you don't take the engine mount off, as you have very little clearance between the engine and chassis. You will need a long 10mm socket and a set of good hex/allen keys for this. This will all make perfect sense if you have done a cam belt before. Personally I pulled off the mount.
    -If the car is in good order and set up the way you want I would be inclined to keep it. You can do a full timing belt service while you are doing the job and then you have all major service items out of the way for another 80 thousand Ks. AND you can always recover some money by selling a working epic pump for a few hundred on ebay or aussiefrogs, there are bound to be a few owners around that are not technically minded and you might save them some serious money.

    I will try to send some photos before I head off to the Flinders Ranges over the weekend. Sorry again for the delay.

    Forgot to mention that the pump will need it's fuelling increased/calibrated. This should be done by a pro but can be done at home. Timing is also easy to set yourself. If you are keen to have a go on your own then I can guide you.

    Regards,

    Julian B

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    From: [email protected]
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: RE: VE pump
    Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 15:20:14 +1100


    Thanks for the quick reply Julian. When you’re ready will be fine.

    The Lucas pump is running okay at the moment, although not starting smoothly when cold. It’s been on the car for 2 years and has done about 70,000km. I’ve been using Flash-Lube since having it fitted so leaks should not be a problem – It is other potential problems that I’m concerned about long-term. The pump came from the UK and was supposed to be only a few years old with about 30,000 miles on it.

    So there is no urgency to fit it. I bought the 405 pump as insurance.

    But I will have to decide what to do. Do I put it on the shelf in case the Lucas pump dies? Do I just swap it over soon? Or do I look around for a lower mileage 406 with a stuffed pump, convert it, and then sell mine as a running vehicle. Decisions, decisions.

    The pump famine turned into a feast. I’ve been looking on and off for some time, as I think I mentioned earlier in a PM. Last week I found a 405 pump on eBay UK, so I bought it and had it sent to a friend in the UK to hold or forward for me. The next day there were 3 more on eBay in the UK – some cheaper. The day after that I found one at Pugwreck in Melbourne – so I bought that one too. Picked it up from Hayden yesterday with the injector pipes. The pump had a seal kit through it about 6 months ago. Not sure why Hayden said there was no bracket – he knows Pugs very well.

    I’ve got a mate near home who has a 405 so I’ll have a look under the bonnet on the weekend.

    But, if I can retain the Lucas bracket like you did, and have the local diesel guy time it, that would be much better for the same reason you did.

    I can compare the 2 very easily. I only remembered this morning that I have my original leaking Lucas pump in the shed still attached to its bracket. The UK sourced Lucas pump came with its bracket so they were swapped as an assembly as it eliminated the need to retime.

    The photos you posted on AF would be great as I will be able to zoom in for a good look. Any others you have would also be appreciated.

    Cheers and thanks,

    Warwick


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    From: [email protected]
    Sent: Tuesday, 6 October 2009 10:35 PM
    To: [email protected]
    Subject:



    Hi Warwick.
    Sorry, I no longer have an internet connection so it is difficult to get online at the moment.

    I will send you photos when I can. Please be patient here.

    Which wrecker did you find a pump through out of interest? It DOES have an aluminium bracket attached attached with 3 or 4 M8x1.5mm bolts with 13mm hex heads bolting it to the block.
    As long as you get the sprocket you are cool, as the Lucas has a different taper to the Bosch and is not interchangeable.

    I have used the Lucas bracket as this enables the original top cam cover to be retained, forget the Bosch bracket, the cam belt is fine, the offset is fine.

    You will need a nice set of allen keys and some small sockets to pull the tension off the cam belt so you can change the sprocket.

    Again please be patient on the photos as I am not online at present.
    If you want any specific shots let me know.

    Regards,

    Julian
    Last edited by WLB; 15th June 2011 at 05:30 PM.
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  10. #10
    WLB
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    Default Text of Julian's conversion notes

    The following is a copy and paste of Julian's conversion notes that he e-mailed me with some photos.



    The 406 bracket will work. It has the same offset from the plane of the belt as the 405, but you will need to swap the studs to the other holes; in a sense rotating the position to the Bosch setting. You will notice that the engine manifold has a cut-out to fit the Bosch pump in easily. This should assuage some of your fears.

    The outlets change position between the Bosch and Lucas. I cannot remember the position change off the top of my head but I think that cylinder one changes from top left to top right for the Bosch. You will need to gently and patiently manipulate the injector pipes if you are using the Lucas ones, otherwise the 405 pipes will line straight up. Remember that the firing pattern is 1,3,4,2.


    You will need to remove the top cover of the pump and rotate it by 180 degrees so that it doesn’t foul on the inlet pipe. You will see what I mean. Be extremely careful when you lift it off. You need clean hands and a level bench – lift up, rotate and replace. If you change the diaphragm setting underneath you affect the way the car enriches under boost. If you bump to the rich side…..BANG

    The stop solenoid will have either 1 or 2 wires. Crimp them together and wire to an ignition positive so your car will run with the “turn of a key”.
    If you have a cold advance add-on (lower left of pump when installed – see photo below. Just disconnect it. Australia is warm enough to do without it, if you live in a freezing climate it might be something to think about later, until then it will just run roughish for a minute at cold start.


    If you have a cold start unit on the back of the pump with a cable to a wax-stat (standard on 405) connect it up when the car is hot in the slack position. This will make sense if the thermostat housing has the wax-stat/cable setup in the side of the housing.

    If you aren’t having the pump overhauled and setup for the increase in capacity by a pro, then check out the Autospeed articles on increasing fuel. Google is your friend.

    The engine check/K light will stay on all the time, and if you rev beyond 3000rpm the tacho will revert to zero until you turn off and restart.


    Forget the bolt on the bottom left of the bracket; it is a pain in the arse! You will see what I mean. Just use the top two, and the bottom right. Set timing in the middle of the slots on the pump and drive for a bit, then advance a degree and see what happens. Diesels use less fuel when advanced and will have more power. Down side is you have higher cylinder temps.

    It is a mechanical pump so not a system that allows for perfection, and can deal with a bit of manipulation. It is German so all is good.





    Notice the service company sticker on the pump in Julian's photo.
    It's Rankin Diesel in Bayswater (Melbourne).

    I spoke to them at length when my pump started leaking 2 years earlier. Hayden at Pugwreck had referred me to them. They were very helpful and a lot of the info I posted back then came from them. They were the people who told me that they had just begun to see failures in the Ford Transit pumps. For those who don't know all the history behind this problem, the Lucas Epic pump is also fitted in huge numbers on Ford Transit vans. Unfortunately it is cleverly designed to be non-intercahngeable with the 406 and requires a different computer controlled test and calibration rig. The only one suitable for the 406 pump is in Sydney - but that's somewhat irrelevant as a rebuild is economically out of the question.
    Last edited by WLB; 15th June 2011 at 05:31 PM.
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  11. #11
    WLB
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    Default A couple more of Julian's photos





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  12. #12
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,

    I'll repost those piccies when the car is back home. I shudder when I see all of the plastic under that bonnet.

    The XM here has metal inlet manifold, bosch pump (original 2.1TD bosch that is) and a slugomatic gearbox ( ).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    WLB
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    Thanks Shane. Does that mean you'll have to take new ones?



    Quote Originally Posted by andrepug View Post
    If you can find the posts that were lost in the great crash a guy called Julian in SA posted a lot of info about doing this (also WLB-sorry Warwick) Converting using the 405 pump seems to be the way to go. You might want to refer to Morassi and Williams 3/ 3 Techno Park Drv Williamstown, VIC 03 9397 3993 as they have experience in doing this. Also do a search - I found this although only similar; http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/sho...d.php?p=904805

    No problem Andrew.

    Did we share any info by e-mail, or was it all by PM - and therefore lost.

    All my original stuff from when the problem reared its ugly head back in mid 2007 has gone. It was all posted on AF. I didn't keep a copy.

    Regards,
    Warwick

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    WLB
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    And here's a bit more reading on the subject - from a UK perspective.

    http://www.406oc.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=7281
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WLB View Post
    Thanks Shane. Does that mean you'll have to take new ones?


    Regards,
    Warwick
    Most likely, my computer was stolen a couple of months back so I will have lost quite a few piccies.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  16. #16
    WLB
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    The bastards!

    It's probably not urgent, but it would be nice to have the thread sort of complete again.

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    Fellow Frogger! 750frog's Avatar
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    SWEEEEET! Looks easier than what I though.

    So I can use the Lucas bracket and move the studs into the other holes for the Bosch pump?

    Now all I need is a pump...
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  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! 750frog's Avatar
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    Does anyone have the Bosch pump/model number for the 1.9TD?

    Cheers.
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    WLB
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    Quote Originally Posted by 750frog View Post
    Does anyone have the Bosch pump/model number for the 1.9TD?

    Cheers.

    Here is a photo showing the ID plate on the spare pump I have sitting in the UK.



    If you can't find one here, I'm happy to sell you this one as I don't need two. You could have it for what I paid for it, plus postage. It cost me $220. They are much cheaper in the UK as they are more plentiful. Cars also tend to end up in the wreckers' yards at an earlier age.
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    Okay I haven't checked in for a while obviously.

    If anyone needs advice on doing this conversion post up here or PM me. I am more than happy to assist in a converter.

    It is not such a complicated job once you have everything you need and you will notice how bolt holes etc just start lining up when you start putting it in.

    I will poke around my backups for a copy of the thread but thanks to WLB and others all is not lost.
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  21. #21
    WLB
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    Welcome back Julian.

    Fortunately my 3 1/2 year old, 2nd hand, low km Lucas pump from the UK is surviving well on its diet of Flash-Lube sulphur replacement additive, so I haven't needed to do the conversion. But I have 2 Bosch pumps at the ready.

    My focus has shifted somewhat however and I've tended to lose interest in the 406. Nice as they are to drive - they aint built like the Pugs of old. Since the leaking Epic pump in 2007, I've had rear-end problems, front-end problems, brake calliper problems, door lock problems, heater core failure, belt tensioner problems, an air-con compressor rebuild, the traditional recirc vent flap motor failure, odometer digits dying, the periodic clagging up of the intercooler and inlet manifold from crankcase and exhaust recirc systems, and it's probably getting close to needing a new clutch ... oh, and I think a turbo oil seal is on the way out.

    Last year I bought back a 505 SRDT that I had owned many years ago, as its second owner, and my son and I are really looking forward to restoring it. Now THAT is my idea of a proper Peugeot!
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    Fellow Frogger! 750frog's Avatar
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    hey thanks for all the info on the forum. I got it in ok, and started fiddling with the mixtures but have encoutered some problems... I will PM so as not to bore everyone here.

    Cheers

  23. #23
    Member julian's Avatar
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    I found backups of my thread! I rescued it via google cached but unfortunately it is sans pictures...
    Can I host PDF or MHT files here or does anyone want to adopt that role?

  24. #24
    WLB
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    The best thing to do Julian is to ask Gibgib. Or post the pdf files directly, like I did.


    750frog,
    Would you consider editing your first post at the start of this thread and changing the subject line to "The 406 Lucas Epic pump thread". We need to ensure that this information can always be found and it would help if all new posts on the subject are either posted here, or links to the other threads are posted here.

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by julian View Post
    I found backups of my thread! I rescued it via google cached but unfortunately it is sans pictures...
    Can I host PDF or MHT files here or does anyone want to adopt that role?
    You can upload them here : http://depositfiles.com/en/

    The just post the link on AF.

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