505 GTi rear suspension
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts catshamlet's Avatar
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    Default 505 GTi rear suspension

    Seems I've boobed.......

    The car I'm talking about is my 203 with all-505 GTi running gear. The rear tyres are scrubbing on the inside, and look like they'll need replacing after 5,000 miles maybe 6,000. Either way, that's obviously not good.

    Took it to the tyre place today where they turned the tyres round on the wheels, so I can use the as-yet unused side of the tread.

    Took it elsewhere to get the alignment checked, and it seems I have about 4mm toe-out. Mr Haynes says I should have 3mm toe-in.

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    Anyone got any good ideas please, before I start pulling things apart?



    Mike.
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  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! Uffee's Avatar
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    So you're using the 505 cross member? (a quick skim of the other thread gives me this idea) You should definitely not have toe out, and 3mm toe in seems about right, I have got the specs of a wheel alignment I had done on my GTD somewhere but with 14 week old twins it's unlikely that I'll have time to dig them out anytime soon.

    If your cross member is too high then you would get toe out and positive camber.

    If your cross member is too low then you would get toe out (as well) and negative camber.

    If the front of your cross member is tilted downwards then you would get toe out and positive camber.

    If the front of your cross member is tilted upwards then you would get toe out and negative camber.

    So to definitively diagnose you probably need the camber and the height of the crossmember off the ground. Toe out is probably less sensitive to cross member height than cross member tilting I would think.
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  3. #3
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    What is the camber? Is it equal on both sides? There is a total of 4mm of tow-out; is it -2 and -2? or -8 and +4? This information would be indicative of the problem, but here is the shotgun approach: You can use shims to adjust camber and tow, we do that routinely. If you don't have shims use 1 mm washers with about a third of the circumference cut off. Loosen the bolts of the bearing carrier and slide the shims behind it. To change to positive tow, add shims to the two rear bolts. To change to negative camber add shims to the two bottom bolts. Is a fairly easy process, you will be sorted after a couple of hours in an alignment place: Start by adding one shim for each mm of tow, then measure tow and do the math to adjust. I am surprised the car is fun to drive like this, you will see a big difference after the geometry changes. And let's see some photos of the car!
    Last edited by Thanos; 14th April 2011 at 05:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanos View Post
    You can use shims to adjust camber and tow, we do that routinely. If you don't have shims use 1 mm washers with about a third of the circumference cut off. Loosen the bolts of the bearing carrier and slide the shims behind it. To change to positive tow, add shims to thet wo rear bolts. To chenge to negative camber add shims to the two bottom bolts. for each mm of tow, add one shim, measure, then do the math to adjust. Is a fairly easy process, you will be sorted after a couple of hours in an alignment place.
    So elegantly simple.
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  5. #5
    1000+ Posts catshamlet's Avatar
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    Thanks Thanos, your shim solution is, as Uffee puts it, so elegantly simple. I assume you mean bolts number 1 in the photo?

    Alignment printout. But I'm afraid I haven't a great deal of faith about how accurate it is, and why there are before and after figures neither I nor the guy doing the checking could understand as no adjustments were made. A little huddle of interested onlookers had gathered, perhaps one of them had moved something.
    I'll try to find somewhere better/ quieter to get the car checked.

    There's always the possibility I didn't fit the crossmember accurately enough - maybe one side is nearer the front than the other, but I've checked that as best I can and it seems ok.

    Couple of pics



    Mike.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 505 GTi rear suspension-505-rear-hub.jpg   505 GTi rear suspension-alignment-printout.jpg   505 GTi rear suspension-allonby.jpg   505 GTi rear suspension-done21.jpg  
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  6. #6
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    Mike

    To begin with, the car looks the bomb. Drive it to Greece so i can steel it!

    Bolts number 1 indeed.

    I hope you did not pay for that alignment, they seem to have printed random numbers.

    Go to another place and take a lot of shims with you. Front tow must be 3mm positive, make sure that you have equal tow on each side and that once you do that the number of steering turns to right lock equals that to left lock. Measure caster as well.

    Front camber of around -1 degree will be great, left and right should be half to three-quarter degrees apart at the most. If they are too far apart you will have to convert the LCA's to uniball joints to adjust camber. Not terribly difficult for someone with your skill set.

    Rear tow in +2 to +4mm (+1mm to +2mm on each side), you can use shims as already described.

    Rear camber around -1.5 degrees will work best, you can shim for that as well.

    I would also measure wheelbase (center of front wheel to center of rear wheel) on the left and right side. If they are not the same try to find out what is causing it. Are left and right caster the same?
    In the photo it appears that the left wheel is closer to the guard than the right wheel; are the two glasses of wine with lunch getting to me?

    Thanos

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    1000+ Posts catshamlet's Avatar
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    No, I didn't pay for the alignment check, and the way it scrubs tyres, I couldn't afford a trip to Greece. If you want to steal it, you'll need to come over 'ere. But you'll need to be an expert - this thing is in an alarmed, camera'd garage, and twice immobilised. And then there's the cat ready to pounce....

    I won't be doing anything about sorting the alignment for two or three weeks - there's a guy from Aus. on his way over here and he would like to see it / go for a drive etc., and it would be a shame if it was off the road. The rear tyres will be renewed after any alignment adjustments anyway, so another few weeks won't hurt.

    But a question or some...

    The 1mm washers - hole size and outer diameter size please?
    If, for example, the shims are fitted to the rear bolts, does the third removed face forwards? i.e. is the gap at the front?
    How many washers can be added before the bolts become too short for safety?
    Does loosening the bolts (even though obviously they're subsequently retightened) disturb any seals?

    And, no, your lunchtime wine doesn't deceive, the left wheel does lean in more than the other.



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    Quote Originally Posted by catshamlet View Post
    - this thing is in an alarmed, camera'd garage, and twice immobilised. And then there's the cat ready to pounce...
    The cat could pose a problem...

    Quote Originally Posted by catshamlet View Post
    The 1mm washers - hole size and outer diameter size please?
    The hole size should match the bolt; I am not sure about the best diameter because we use shims, my guess is anything around 20-25mm will work well.

    Quote Originally Posted by catshamlet View Post
    If, for example, the shims are fitted to the rear bolts, does the third removed face forwards? i.e. is the gap at the front?
    We have the gap facing down to retain it in (the unlikely) case the bolts get loose. Just make sure when you cut the washer that the gap is big enough to (just) go past the bolt without damaging the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by catshamlet View Post
    How many washers can be added before the bolts become too short for safety?
    We never had to shim more than 2 mm to reach our target and we kept the same bolts. If there is significant shimming compensate by offsetting the width of the shim(s) with a longer bolt.

    Quote Originally Posted by catshamlet View Post
    Does loosening the bolts (even though obviously they're subsequently retightened) disturb any seals?
    We did not have dramas of the sort.

    Quote Originally Posted by catshamlet View Post
    And, no, your lunchtime wine doesn't deceive, the left wheel does lean in more than the other.
    ok, then, I will increase the dosage..

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by catshamlet View Post
    .

    There's always the possibility I didn't fit the crossmember accurately enough - maybe one side is nearer the front than the other, but I've checked that as best I can and it seems ok.




    Mike.
    Aussie visitor been and gone, so back to it, and.....

    Oh dear me, I've just discovered one of the downsides of doing everything myself. When measuring between two points that are farther apart than your arms can stretch, it's a good idea to enlist some help. Which is what I did today..

    Wheelbase, right hand side = 2570mm, left hand side = 2579mm. Not good.

    Height of crossmember mount above the ground...right = 245mm, left = 255mm. Also not good.

    Buggah!



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    Hi Mike,

    I used to worry about such things, until I worked out that, if you have enough adjustment, anything can be compensated for. Why not, as I do, Rose joint the whole shebang, everything? It will be a thing of such beauty that any alignment place worthy of the name should do the alignment for free.

    However, it is always a good idea to get the inboard pickup points in the right place, so I would start the shimming with the subframe.

    Cheers,

    Tim

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts catshamlet's Avatar
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    I'm moving the left crossmember mount forward so both sides will be equal, and we'll see what's what after that. Rose joints sound nice, trouble is they also sound expensive! And I'm skint.

    I'll give Thanos' shimming method a try, and hunt down a patient wheel alignment bloke. I'll need to have this sorted by the end of next week, because I'm off down South for the weekend.

    BTW, I read in another thread that toe-out is unstable and dangerous, and I can confirm that it most certainly is.
    Strangely, the car runs nice and straight on dry roads and at legal speeds, but encountering a pool of water on the motorway at the weekend at 90 plus (that's mph) gave me the fright of my life. And must have seemed interesting to the guy following in the BMW.

    Crappy wheel alignment + tyres down to the wear indicators + puddle = Holy Sh!t!

    It's time I started acting my age I think.



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    Quote Originally Posted by catshamlet View Post
    I'm moving the left crossmember mount forward so both sides will be equal, and we'll see what's what after that...
    Make sure you also use spacers to adjust the crossmember mount height so both sides are equal. I had a feeling this was the case looking at the photo...

    Quote Originally Posted by catshamlet View Post
    I'll give Thanos' shimming method a try....
    Not mine, old as shoes...
    Quote Originally Posted by catshamlet View Post
    Crappy wheel alignment + tyres down to the wear indicators + puddle = Holy Sh!t!
    Good for your health, a tune-up for the adrenal glands...

    Quote Originally Posted by catshamlet View Post
    It's time I started acting my age I think....
    How horribly boring... BTW, what is the fine for doing 90 mph these days in the UK?

  13. #13
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    Yes, forgot to say, the crossmember height will be sorted at the same time.

    Dunno about the adrenal glands, are they located somewhere in the underwear department?

    Speeding fines? No idea. The dear departed wife was done for 106 mph a couple of years back, banned for ten days and a hefty fine, but I can't remember what it was. General opinion was that she'd got off relatively lightly.



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  14. #14
    1000+ Posts catshamlet's Avatar
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    Default Nuisance...

    Moved my crossmember mounting so it's now where it should be, but...

    ....the shimming method isn't quite so simple on my car apparently - my hub carrier seems to be bolted on from the other side. I looked at the inside of the trailing arm expecting to see four bolt heads waiting to be undone, but there's just the threaded ends of bolts peeping back at me.

    It looks like there are four allen head bolts holding the bearing carrier, but to get at them I'll need to take the brake disc off first. Between Mr Haynes and yours truly we can usually fathom out how to do stuff but he's confusing me. How the hell do I get the brake disc off?

    I've an idea it's just a matter of undoing the nut (the big bugger in the photo) and hey presto? But I'm not totally sure, and that nut looks like it'll be a challenge.

    Aargh!



    Mike.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by catshamlet View Post
    It looks like there are four allen head bolts holding the bearing carrier, but to get at them I'll need to take the brake disc off first. .
    Look at the hole on your hub at 11 o'clock in the photo. Rotate it and it should give you access to to the bolts, one at a time. You should not have to take anything off to insert the shims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanos View Post
    Look at the hole on your hub at 11 o'clock in the photo. Rotate it and it should give you access to to the bolts, one at a time. You should not have to take anything off to insert the shims.
    Be careful not to break the end of the Allen key off when undoing the bolts.
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    better yet, cut (easier said, ...) the end off and braze it into a socket
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  18. #18
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    You can buy sockets like this - much better idea.

    Tim

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcusack View Post
    You can buy sockets like this - much better idea.

    Tim
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    Quote Originally Posted by fnqvmuch View Post
    better yet, cut (easier said, ...) the end off and braze it into a socket
    Assuming you use the right size socket, there is no need to braze or weld it.....


    My suggestion is to make sure that there is no rubbish or gunk built up in the head of the allen-key bolt, because if you round out the head of the bolt you're in a world of hurt. Just use a small, flat bladed screwdriver to make sure it is completely clear before attempting to undo it.
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  21. #21
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    It's not rocket science, cut a lump of hex off an allen key and stick it in socket, nothing more required. No brazing, no expensive specialised socket you will use a few times in your life, just a sacrificial allen key!

    The hardest thing is not losing the piece of hex in your toolbox.


    BTW a piece of hex in a ratchet ring is magic for undoing those impossible-to-get-at bell housing bolts.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    ... not losing the piece of hex in your toolbox. ...
    for undoing those impossible-to-get-at ...
    precisely what drove me to sacrifice a surplus socket - and it hasn't got lost in more than 25 years ... since undoing some upper rear mount bolts that were impossible-to-get-at in whatever ludicrous conditions prevailed.
    good times, good times ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    My suggestion is to make sure that there is no rubbish or gunk built up in the head of the allen-key bolt, because if you round out the head of the bolt you're in a world of hurt.
    I was using one of those new fangled Allen keys with the ball head which broke off. it was at the wreckers and I was after the diff so I just took the other hub off with a proper Allen key.

    I was unseizing some brakes on the weekend and the POS, er the PO, has rounded off one of the caliper Allen bolts. Luckily I was able to unseize the caliper.
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    Icon9 When is a hole not a whole....?

    All excellent advice as ever, thanks. But some guy, presumably a professional Pug mechanic / technician, whatever they call themselves, has thrown a spanner into the works, so to speak.

    The first wheel I looked at, the one in the photo, the hole doesn't go all the way through.
    I was once told there's no such thing as half a hole, it's either a hole or it isn't, well I've only half a hole. Unless this has been like it from new, but at 110,000 miles I doubt it, the brake disc must've been changed and refitted with the holes a quarter turn out. If I grope about round the back of the disc I can feel the "other" hole. That's the left hand side, the RHS the holes line up as they should, and access to the allen head bolts no problem.

    Anyway, there's not much point in whingeing about why it is how it is. ( Sometimes I think I'm not really a pom )

    Seems to me the easiest (read less difficult) way to sort this is to drill another hole in the disc. Would it be safe to do that? The "proper" holes are 20mm, but as I'm just loosening and retightening the bolts, and not removing them, I could get away with drilling only 9mm holes maybe? The allen key is 8mm, the extra 1mm is for a little waggle room.
    I know it will be a pain to do, but I'd prefer to drill a 20mm hole if it's safe.

    Any thoughts, please?



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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by catshamlet View Post
    All excellent advice as ever, thanks. But some guy, presumably a professional Pug mechanic / technician, whatever they call themselves, has thrown a spanner into the works, so to speak.

    The first wheel I looked at, the one in the photo, the hole doesn't go all the way through.
    I was once told there's no such thing as half a hole, it's either a hole or it isn't, well I've only half a hole. Unless this has been like it from new, but at 110,000 miles I doubt it, the brake disc must've been changed and refitted with the holes a quarter turn out. If I grope about round the back of the disc I can feel the "other" hole. That's the left hand side, the RHS the holes line up as they should, and access to the allen head bolts no problem.

    Anyway, there's not much point in whingeing about why it is how it is. ( Sometimes I think I'm not really a pom )

    Seems to me the easiest (read less difficult) way to sort this is to drill another hole in the disc. Would it be safe to do that? The "proper" holes are 20mm, but as I'm just loosening and retightening the bolts, and not removing them, I could get away with drilling only 9mm holes maybe? The allen key is 8mm, the extra 1mm is for a little waggle room.
    I know it will be a pain to do, but I'd prefer to drill a 20mm hole if it's safe.

    Any thoughts, please?



    Mike.
    You'll add some imbalance (if the hubs are balanced anyway) and could reduce the life of your bearings but whether it's enough to notice...
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