405 Tachymetric Relay
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  1. #1
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    Default 405 Tachymetric Relay

    Froggers

    I'm an old bugger brought up on mechanical fuel pumps, Weber Carburettors and distributors with points and am having difficulty solving a problem with my kids' 1994 405 STI.
    When cruising along , it will lose power, the engine stops and it grinds to a halt in a usually dangerous spot.
    Obvious things like fuel filter, plugs and injectors have been attended to and it generally runs perfectly.
    I've done a search and learnt that the fuel pump/tachymetric relay can possibly cause this problem. Despite spending half a day head down and arse up under the dash and in the engine bay I cannot locate the relay. Despite removing heaps of relays of different sizes and colours and even large canisters one at a time, the fuel pump works and the car starts.
    The stalling only occurs every couple of weeks but seems to be becoming more frequent.

    Any advice greatly appreciated
    Norm

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    PS When I get to the car after it has been abandoned it always bursts into life immediately!

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    Fellow Frogger! PCOATES505's Avatar
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    Default Could it be

    Quote Originally Posted by 203 View Post
    Froggers

    I'm an old bugger brought up on mechanical fuel pumps, Weber Carburettors and distributors with points and am having difficulty solving a problem with my kids' 1994 405 STI.
    When cruising along , it will lose power, the engine stops and it grinds to a halt in a usually dangerous spot.
    Obvious things like fuel filter, plugs and injectors have been attended to and it generally runs perfectly.
    I've done a search and learnt that the fuel pump/tachymetric relay can possibly cause this problem. Despite spending half a day head down and arse up under the dash and in the engine bay I cannot locate the relay. Despite removing heaps of relays of different sizes and colours and even large canisters one at a time, the fuel pump works and the car starts.
    The stalling only occurs every couple of weeks but seems to be becoming more frequent.

    Any advice greatly appreciated
    Norm

    PS When I get to the car after it has been abandoned it always bursts into life immediately!
    I had the same problem with my 1.9L 405, drove me nuts for a long time, turned out to be oil getting into the distributor cap (worn shaft not sealing correctly) It would take quite some time to get enough oil in to short out the rotor and contacts, then the car would grind to a halt and refuse to restart. When parked for a while the oil would drain out, then the car would start.
    cheers Pete

    I am gunna get another 403 on the road........one day

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    Default

    Pete

    Thanks for the reply. However, I should have made it clear that it's a Series 2 405 which has the Magnetti-Marelli "brain" and no distributor.

    Anyone got any ideas or able to tell me where the Tachymetric Relay is?

    Thanks
    Norm

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 203 View Post
    Pete

    Thanks for the reply. However, I should have made it clear that it's a Series 2 405 which has the Magnetti-Marelli "brain" and no distributor.

    Anyone got any ideas or able to tell me where the Tachymetric Relay is?

    Thanks
    Norm
    A vehicle with a distributor-less ECU would not normally have a tachometric relay.

    Normally the fuel pump relay is a standard relay, driven off an output from the ECU ("brain").

    The ECU would do all the tacho sensing etc etc

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    Default problems

    from my understanding the tachy relay stops the injecters working unless it senses a spark ,cant help with the location but i always thaught it lived on the drop down panel above the drivers feet .i be inclined to investigate the ignition module mounted on the side of the battery box .they have a reputation of being intermitent when they are packing up .and heat sensitive .looking at the service history of my 89 mi when i got it it apeared to have had one every 3 to 5 years .ive priced around i beleive you can get them from repco or take it into your local auto spark who sells bosch and he should be able to get you one

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    Fellow Frogger! XM Mechanic's Avatar
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    Like Pugwash suggests I reckon it is the ignition module.
    Regards,

    Garth.


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    robmac
    Thanks for your advice about tachymetric relays. However, I still haven't been able to locate the fuel pump relay.

    pugwash
    XM Mechanic
    This is a series 2 405 which has no distributor or ignition module.
    Thanks for your help - I think my next move will be to try another fuel pump. The original one is still fitted and maybe it's throwing an occasional wobbly.

    Norm

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    Not sure if this will help.
    When I first bought my Ser. 11 505 GTi wagon it too cut out -- sometimes after quite a few days.
    Turned out that it was the connecter to the engine temp. sender which was partially broken and vibration caused it to work loose thus not sending a signal to the ECU.
    Fixing that stopped the problem.
    Might pay to check all engine sender connectors.
    Pavel

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    Quote Originally Posted by PCOATES505 View Post
    I had the same problem with my 1.9L 405, drove me nuts for a long time, turned out to be oil getting into the distributor cap (worn shaft not sealing correctly) It would take quite some time to get enough oil in to short out the rotor and contacts, then the car would grind to a halt and refuse to restart. When parked for a while the oil would drain out, then the car would start.
    cheers Pete
    I can't imagine how you ever tracked that one down!!
    JohnW

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    Thanks for the replies on both the forum and by PM - it's given me several leads to follow.

    I substituted a fuel pump from an old MI16 up in the paddock and after driving a couple of hundred k's had only one short stumble but no cutting out. Then the fuel relay and a couple of others close by were changed and after a week's use, so far so good.

    If the problem recurs, and I half expect it will, I'll then have a look at the crank angle sensor and the MAP sensor.

    Norm

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    Quote Originally Posted by XM Mechanic View Post
    Like Pugwash suggests I reckon it is the ignition module.
    or the cranky sensor
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  12. #12
    Tadpole
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    the tacho works from the ecu what relys on the crank angle sensor, (http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/sho...d.php?p=946350)

    now the fuel pump works off a couple of relys on the ds under the bonnet (405 89) which has 2 pumps, a priming pump under the back seats and a main pump before the filter behind the spare wheel.

    i had both go on me. tach gave erratic power due to a gouge in the side would work in a certain position but other times conk out if moved, while the fuel pump relay died which just made the system lose all power to the pump( and yes putting your foot to the floor makes the problem come up quicker when its losing power from lack of fuel pump pressure)

    its good to hear that it was the pump not the tacho

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    Hey 203, if you are going to replace your crank angle sensor, have a look here, I posted it elswhere earlier....

    Just replaced the crank angle sensor in a XU9J4 engine. The cross reference part number I came up with is CAS-065 but the part turned up in a Hyundai parts bag.

    If you are ever looking for a new crank angle for one of these, try your local Hyundai dealer first, their part number is 39180 22001. I would bet it's cheaper than the Peugeot comparable part. Their appearance is identical and it seems to work fine.

    A quick reference for you - if the car does die again, turn the ignition off and turn it straight back on (don't crank) - you should hear the fuel pump start up and run for a couple of seconds before it shuts off again. If you hear the pump then the fuel pump relays and probably the tachymetric relay are not the problem. If you don't hear the pump then one of the relays is at fault - totally unrelated to the crank angle sensor.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by racing405 View Post

    [...]

    A quick reference for you - if the car does die again, turn the ignition off and turn it straight back on (don't crank) - you should hear the fuel pump start up and run for a couple of seconds before it shuts off again. If you hear the pump then the fuel pump relays and probably the tachymetric relay are not the problem. If you don't hear the pump then one of the relays is at fault - totally unrelated to the crank angle sensor.
    That test doesn't actually check the Tachy relay. As explained above, the Tachy relay works off spark which you don't have before you start the engine.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

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    Quote Originally Posted by racing405 View Post

    A quick reference for you - if the car does die again, turn the ignition off and turn it straight back on (don't crank) - you should hear the fuel pump start up and run for a couple of seconds before it shuts off again.
    That works for some ECU's but not Motronic, which won't start the pump until the crank starts turning. It has nothing to do with spark. Earlier Jetronic systems use a tachymetric relay.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Well, it's still running well after two and a half weeks and several hundred kilometres.
    However my limited knowledge of electronics won't allow me to claim it is fixed yet.Thanks to all who offered suggestions and if/when the problem recurs I now have a few more avenues to pursue.

    Norm

  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger! stew's Avatar
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    Default fuel pump

    203,
    If the car is still working after chnaging the fuel pump, maybe the pump was faulty. The common problem with the pump failing on 405's is poor volts to them. There is usually a black rectangular choke block in the harness at the fuel pump. That fails internally and reduces volts to the pump. Might I suggest you remove that black rectangular hoogee, chuck it to the outside s***house and join the harness to the pump with out any fiendish French electrical attachments! The fuel pump relay is in a black box in front of the drivers strut tower, too.

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    Thanks stew, Inoticed that the doner car did not have that black "hoogee" that the fuel pump wires pass through so thought it was not all that important. Any more trouble and I will certainly get rid of it.

    Norm

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    After six weeks the 405 has not yet cut out again. I think I can safely say that the fuel pump was the culprit.

    Norm

  20. #20
    Tadpole
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    Icon9 New Saga, simliar problem

    Would a Grounded spark cable make the engine cut out if the ignition module or the ignition coil started to overheat from the grounding?

    What part/s should i replace if one of these parts are nearing its end of life.

    My story of how i found this out is below.

    I was going at 110km/hour on the highway and then i lost all power, tacho needle dropped to zero instantly and then i rolled to a stop. Had to get the car towed home as it was at night and raining, not the best time to look for a problem, and as it was nearing 11pm, i did not want to wait for a tow truck to the next exit, then wait for an racq service vehicle then another tow after that if they could not do anything.... (3+hours waiting)

    I checked then car out the next morning, and the engine started first go, then ran for up to 5mins, then it died and just cranked over after that.

    I pulled the distributor cap off and it looked good, no oil on it. put it back together again, still not working.

    I unplugged and plugged all the relays and pulled the spark leads off one at a time and found one of the leads had a nice hole in the rubber shielding where it gets held between the stubby metals(which now looks shiny and bright and spiky) but was pinched by the cover , i insulated the shielding again with a heap of electrical tape.

    I then started the car, it started but missed fired like crazy (like it was running on 2 cylinders). Seems i put the plug leads on the wrong way. I corrected that.

    Now the car idles for over 20minutes and the fans kicked in and it looks all good .

    So I'll need to get a new spark lead that has a hole in the shielding.

    Should i also get a second hand ignition coil(the transformer like thing that connects to the center of the distributor cap) and ignition module(that blue thing next to the battery) and replace them asap?

  21. #21
    Tadpole
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    Icon6 take number two, as pc crashed while writing this the first time :'(

    to give an update to my story, my car seemed to run perfectly, but then it would die all of a sudden, i would then reseat the ignition modules and relays on the drivers side and the car would go again.

    last monday, i hopped into my car and drove to the local shops and oddly the car did not idle and stopped at the lights, i restarted the car and it came back to life instantly, did not think much of it.

    the next day i was suppose to pick up my partner from the brisbane airport in the morning, i hope in my car and start it and drive 500m and then it dies, i go and fiddle with the relays and it runs again . get to the motorway merge point and it dies again :'(, i go and fiddle with the relays (black, green, red drivers side black box) again it works again . me thinking its the green relay at fault, i swap it for one from under the dash, but sadly my luck ran out and the battery did not want to start the engine one more time :'(.

    the mechanic replaces the battery, fair enough, it was 4 years old and has needed recharging when it starts to get cold. he also found out that the car runs perfectly when the red relay is replaced with a jump cable. hmm interesting.

    i go and ask my mate to send me some second hand relays from one of his wrecks, so am waiting on them.

    i pick up my car friday morning as the mechanic closes at 3:45 in the afternoon on fridays, lucky.. and remove the jump lead as its always powered.

    the next day (sat) i pull apart the red relay and found it only activates with power going in one direction, and can turn the relay off fast when power is run the other direction. eg it does not close the circuit unless the current is going a curtain direction, and if its going in reverse it defaults back to the middle pin (unused) as fast as the tiny magnetic field can be generated.

    the relay closed properly when i tested it on the battery. as my street is very quite, when i placed the jump lead in place of the red relay, i can hear other relays connecting somewhere in the car. i then wire the relay up with my multimeter in the middle of the magnetic switch and found that their is always current running through the red relays, about 60millamps, but when the key is placed into the ignition/run location, it jumps up to 800millamps and closes the circuit. so power to the relay is not a problem.

    so i install the relay into its normal position and try to crank the engine to see if it starts... nope wont start. so i use my multimeter to jump the relay while its still in place.

    car starts, i remove the multimeter, car stops. i then just fiddling with the pressure on the relay and start to her relay clicks like with my jump lead. i then hold the relay in a certain position and start the engine, yay, it starts, i let go of the relay, it stops. ahha, i found the problem. its a dry solder joint on where the pins connect to the circuit board of the relay.

    $7 later for a soldering iron, i reheated the joints and plugged in my repaired relay and the car runs perfectly. .

    so from what i've found out.

    Green relay is for fuel line.

    Red relay is for ignition and spark.

    When the red relay was playing up randomly, my k light was turning on for more than 60% of the time, this is due to the fuel being dumped into the exhaust and not burning right as the power was intermittent. i was alway getting a twitchy tacho at certain rev ranges, this was also due to the power being cut and connection quickly from the vibrations. and also the random engine dead while on the highway was due to vibrations from the road and the cold weather making the solder shrink and crack more to make the dry solder joint a bigger air gap, which was then fixed with a wiggle on the contacts when i removed and reseated the relay.


    btw what types of smell comes from the firewall cover (black with hair like things on it) when it starts to fall onto the exhaust manifold?
    also can the exhaust manifold leak when its cold then seal up when it gets hot. as i've been getting exhaust fumes and plastic burning smells when the air intake is open and when the engine just starts.

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