205 GTI, is it possible?
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Default 205 GTI, is it possible?

    I had a problem with my GTI (just bought it, so completely unknown car).

    It stoped running all of a sudden whilst doing 100km/h on the freeway. This was right after I filled up the tank (98 BP petrol). Car went like stink in all tests before that.

    I suspect is a fuelling problem and still have to check the pump.

    Question 1: Is there a fuel filter before the pump?

    Q2: Is it possible that the fuel tank does not vent?

    Q3: can anyone please post a picture of the fuel pump? There's plenty for sale on the web, but not sure which one is the right one. Car is 1987.

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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts parry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    I had a problem with my GTI (just bought it, so completely unknown car).

    It stoped running all of a sudden whilst doing 100km/h on the freeway. This was right after I filled up the tank (98 BP petrol). Car went like stink in all tests before that.

    I suspect is a fuelling problem and still have to check the pump.

    Question 1: Is there a fuel filter before the pump?

    Q2: Is it possible that the fuel tank does not vent?

    Q3: can anyone please post a picture of the fuel pump? There's plenty for sale on the web, but not sure which one is the right one. Car is 1987.
    I would check if you have spark before assuming it is a fuel problem. Also might be a timing belt failure, hope not though. Pull the cover off on the belt and have a look.
    90 205 Gti Cherry Red(Track Car)
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    Oran Park: 1:27:9
    Wakefield: 1:05.6 (July 2015)
    Eastern Creek: 1:54 (8v) 1:48 (16V)
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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by parry View Post
    I would check if you have spark before assuming it is a fuel problem. Also might be a timing belt failure, hope not though. Pull the cover off on the belt and have a look.

    I wouldn't have arrived to these questions if I hadn't checked everything else.

    Perhaps I should have said "the car lost power" not stopped. The engine spins freely when cranked, so no cambelt issues. Spark strong. When cranked, sounds like a carby car with no fuel supply.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    1000+ Posts gezza's Avatar
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    Fuel filter is in the engine bay at the back on the bulkhead drivers side...

    On really (35plus) hot days after a few hrs of driving my 205 gti fuel gets a little funny like its not going thru to the engine quick enough at normal driving speeds its only when i put my foot down thats its ok..

    I put it down to heat...

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gezza View Post
    Fuel filter is in the engine bay at the back on the bulkhead drivers side...

    On really (35plus) hot days after a few hrs of driving my 205 gti fuel gets a little funny like its not going thru to the engine quick enough at normal driving speeds its only when i put my foot down thats its ok..

    I put it down to heat...

    THAT fuel filter is certainly AFTER the pump, not before. If you check you will see the fuel hose going from that filter to the fuel rail.

    I need to know if there is another one before the pump to check if it's blocked.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Fellow Frogger! DjB8V's Avatar
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    Does the car have an immobilizer?

    I had a very similar problem to this and it turned out that the immobilizer was cutting the fuel pump.



    Chris

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Good question. If it does, I have no idea where it is or how to find it. It started before without me having to do anything fancy with any magic wand, but I take the idea on board, thank you. I will dig.

    In the meantime, can someone please answer the three questions above? I can't believe they're so difficult.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Fellow Frogger! DjB8V's Avatar
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    The fuel pump is under a black bung under the back seat from memory if you want a look at it. All the 205 GTI fuel pumps are fairly generic I think.

    As for venting, I don't think the fuel tank does have one.

    I'm 80% sure on the both of those.



    Chris

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    I am not at home for another few days and wanted to order the pump that's why I need to see it. Australian suppliers don't have it, so needs to come from overseas and I didn't want to risk it.
    I will have answers to all these questions once I get home, but I won't have time to do anything about it before I head off into the bush again, that's why time is of the essence here.

    If the pump is good that leaves the injectors even though is very unlikely that all of them would fail all of a sudden. Perhaps the signal to the injectors is a suspect too. I will check that after the pump.

    The reason I am more convinced that is somethign to do with fuel is that there was nothing coming off the exhaust pipe even after serious cranking. If the fuel system did its job I would expect some serious smell of petrol around the tailpipe.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Fellow Frogger! chez00's Avatar
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    In the meantime, can someone please answer the three questions above? I can't believe they're so difficult.
    1) The fuel pump is an in tank type and has a gauze filter at the pick-up. This gets clogged over service life and can be cleaned (or removed).
    2) Don't know to be honest. If they didn't, you'd expect a woosh of air when you undid the fuel cap created by the vacuum as the fuel is slowly drawn out of the tank. I don't think my fuel cap even seals all that well anyway - you just kind of quarter turn it on until the exterior trim all lines up. What is the relevance to your problem anyway?
    3) I'll take a photo of my '88 fuel pump in the morning for you buddy. I reckon both being a DFZ series 1 they'll be the same thing.

    Don't want to point out the obvious but the fuel pump does have a fuse (number 14, 15amp according to Haynes) and a relay somewhere under the dash...

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    That's exactly the confusion. I have seen fuel pumps that are obviously external to the tank, I have seen fuel pumps that are obviously internal. People here say the pump is under the rear seat and now, in the tank.

    Is it impossible to tell by year? That's why I put the MY at the top of the thread.

    Oh, well, in a few days I'll know.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    People here say the pump is under the rear seat and now, in the tank.
    .
    These are not mutually exclusive. All 205 fuel pumps are in the same place - in the tank, under the seat. Before you replace the pump, why don't you see if it is working?

    Tim

  13. #13
    Member HOT306's Avatar
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    Have you tried to put power directly to the fuel pump?

    Then have a friend crank the engine. This answer your questions about the immobilizer question.

    Can you hear the fuel pump priming when the key is turned before you crank it?

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts PugMonkey's Avatar
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    When the fuel pump is running, it provides approx 30 psi on Idle. Do a flow rate and pressure test at the fuel filter to determine this.

    You can also remove the fuel pump relay (tachomatric relay within the drivers side foot well) and short the normally open terminals to operate the pump. You will hear it run from the drivers seat - even louder with the bottom of the right rear seat up.

    The tachomatric relay is normally bright yellow in color.
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    Fellow Frogger! chez00's Avatar
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    Perhaps the best way to know for sure then is to pull yours out?

    I haven't got that photo yet as the Pug is parked at the workshop due to a broken clutch cable.

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Pump priming.

    I already asked this question in another thread and only got one answer from someone who said thiers did not make any sound.

    Mine didn't either, that's why I asked the question.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    OK.

    Pump works, but is not energised at all.

    I checked the pump by applying 12 directly on the terminals and sounds spinning freely and nicely round.

    The wires however don't supply anything when cranking or switching the ignition on.

    Suspects

    pump fuse,
    tacho relay,
    pump relay

    anything else?

    I found fuse no14 on the fuse panel in the glovebox, is good. Hopefully that's the one. That's the one indicated by the Haynes manual wiring diagram anyway.

    regards
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 5th April 2011 at 07:14 PM.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! chile's Avatar
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    Check the rear earth point located in the passanger side of the boot. The fuel pump is earth there and if there is corrosion it will not work. Cheers

    Chile

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Default progress

    Today I fiddled a lot with everything and here's the outcome.

    The pump works, the tacho relay works, the engine cranks but doesn't start.

    Detalis.

    I did not manage to find the tach relay. I pulled apart the driver's side trim, etc, the steering wheel cowl, the ECU, and there's no relays anywhere.

    I had a look in the book and found the wires, the numbers on the wires correspond, I traced the wire to the fuse, the fuse is fine.

    I had a look at the three relays just behin the LH headlight, not sure what they are, but pulled the one with 5 connections and checked it, it was good, then put it back. I suspected that one to be the tacho realy, but checking the wires, I am not sure it is. There appears to be no electrical conection between that and the fuse, and that relay is not energised when the ignition is switched on.

    Here is the weird thing. I put everything back after playing and checking everything, and in despair, I crnked the engine hoping to get lucky. This time, I heard the pump priming clearly, the engine cranked but no start.

    Checked a few times, and now I am convinced the pump is priming and working correctly, so I am sure the tacho relay works.

    I would still like to know where the bastard is and what it looks like if anyone can help. Perhaps you can find a picture on the web, there's a few I found, but not sure which is mine or where to find it in the car.

    Now on to the next stage. I found the connections to the battery crappy to say the least. They looked fine, but a closer inspection revealed the battery connectors were just pushed on by hand and the wires are frayed badly. I will soder some nice terminals and give the battery a fresh charge and try again and report here.

    If anyone has any idea or a picture of the bastard tacho relay, please feel free to help.

    One trick I have learned from a Honda I had in the past is to grease all the electrical conections to keep water out. That car had the best connectyions I have seen. No water ever got in, no corrosin, no electircal faults ever. I am doing this as I go along, using silicone grease aplenty.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Default a new surprise

    I have tried again to start the car to no avail even though everything seems to be working fine.

    A few minutes later I had a look (by chance) in the expansion bottle and realised there was no coolant there. Hmm. Opened the radiator, same story. Put some coolant in, heard a pissing sound, looked under the car, all the coolant was leaking out from the water pump (I suppose, because it is coming from under the lower timing cover). Hmmm. Not good.

    Now I suspect i blew the head gasket. Maybe what happened on the freeway was a catastrophic failure of the waterpump seal, instant and complete loss of coolant followed by blowing the headgasket. Dang. I really am in no mood to pull the head, but I guess I don't have a choice. Oh, well. I had to do it some time anyway.

    I'll keep posting.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! chez00's Avatar
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    A few minutes later I had a look (by chance) in the expansion bottle and realised there was no coolant there. Hmm. Opened the radiator, same story. Put some coolant in, heard a pissing sound, looked under the car, all the coolant was leaking out from the water pump (I suppose, because it is coming from under the lower timing cover). Hmmm. Not good.
    That sort of overheating may have done more than a head gasket. If and when you do get the head off, check the piston liners thoroughly.

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts PugMonkey's Avatar
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    If the fuel pump is running then ignore the tach relay. If the tach relay was faulty the pump would not be running.

    I know you have spark but have you checked the disributor? Maybe (just maybe - and I know because I have fallen victim to it) the distributor has been put back on 180 deg out - The wrong way. There is no key way to stop this and its a simple thing to do when your in a fluster. The wrong way is when the dist is pointing up toward the bonnet.

    Doing this you will still have spark but being 180 deg out of phase, nothing will fire.

    Dumb I know. My fail!

    This wont account for stopping on the freeway but it might be apparent after you have had it all apart.

    POST A PICK OF THE ENGINE - Someone may be able to pick it from the picture

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  23. #23
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chez00 View Post
    That sort of overheating may have done more than a head gasket. If and when you do get the head off, check the piston liners thoroughly.

    You think it might have ruptured the liner base seals?

    Or is it something else?
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  24. #24
    sans witticism SLC206's Avatar
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    Is the timing belt still fitted?
    Regards,

    Simon

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  25. #25
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLC206 View Post
    Is the timing belt still fitted?

    Why wouldn't it?

    I checked the engine spins freely, there's some sond of compression, but didn't do a visual. I was going to do it today, by pulling the plugs and run a compression test but there was so much crap that could find its way in the engine, I preferred to give it a thourough clean.

    Waiting for it to dry and I take it from there.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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