505 GTI, blinkers on the blink
  • Register
  • Help
Results 1 to 12 of 12
  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Blue Mountains, NSW
    Posts
    437

    Default 505 GTI, blinkers on the blink

    Finally got around to fitting a couple of relays as planned in this thread. The Megasquirt is now much happier, with far less fluctuation of pulse widths. The car was already running pretty nicely, but this has improved it quite noticeably.

    But I now have an intermittent problem with the indicators. They seem to work fine when I first start the car after sitting overnight, but if I turn it off and start it again, they sometimes (usually) don't work. They work perfectly every time when you go from off to ignition. If you just touch the starter and let it back to the ignition position they often won't work. My not too wonderful workaround when I find them not working is to drive along, turn the ignition off and back on, release the clutch and let the car push-start itself again. This has worked every time. So everything seems to point to the starter.

    99.9% likely that this is due to something I did in wiring up the relays, so I'll describe what I did.

    Relay 1. Ignition.
    I spliced wire 32 (which comes from the ignition switch) at the tach relay onto the control terminal (85) of a relay. I hooked the controlled terminal (87) of that relay to the original terminal position on the tach relay. This wire also feeds to the fuel injectors, Megasquirt and coil +ve (a new wire to the coil, just left the original wire disconnected). Wired the other terminals of the relay (86 and 30) to the chassis and battery +ve respectively.

    Relay 2. Starter.
    Simplicity itself. Unplugged wire 76 from the starter solenoid and plugged it into a wire to the control terminal of a second relay. Brought another wire from the controlled terminal back to the starter solenoid. Other two wires shared with Relay 1.

    Advertisement


    Now that I type this, I realise I can simply plug wire 76 back onto the starter and that eliminates relay 2 from the equation. I'll give that a go and see what happens.

    I'd be grateful for any suggestions. I'm mystified how any of this affects the blinkers -- particularly if it's the starter relay -- but electrons do have a knack of finding all sorts of surprising ways around circuits.

    It'd also be great if anyone has a better wiring diagram. All I have for the 505 is the one in the back of the Haynes manual, which is mostly right, but for LHD. I have scanned it and pasted the two sides together to make a single image which is a lot easier for my eyes. It's about 3MB, and I'll post it here if anyone is interested -- but I'd surely like a better one.

    Have fun,

    Rob.

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! tomb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    209

    Default electrical gremlins

    Rob first off thanks for all your good input in the past.

    Not in your league when it comes to the problems you are having but I have acquired a peugeot/talbot worshop manual which has the electrical layout for 104's 305's 504's, 505's and 205's up to I think '86. So there is a layout for a 505 ZDJL engine. If this is any use to you PM your details and I will put a copy in the mail.

    Tom

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Blue Mountains, NSW
    Posts
    437

    Default

    Many thanks Tom, PM sent.

    I'm glad to hear that you value some of my postings, though I'm hardly in any special league. Just another bloke who enjoys driving Pugs. Of course, Pug owners are a special league, but not hereabouts.

    And, as an update to my blinker problem, sure enough, restoring wire 76 to its rightful place at the starter does fix the problem. So it's the starter relay, and I'm very puzzled. The Haynes diagram showed an optional starter relay; mine didn't have one, perhaps it was only included on automatics.

    Have fun,

    Rob.
    Last edited by robs; 25th March 2011 at 07:58 PM. Reason: wire 76, not 46

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! PCOATES505's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Gunbower
    Posts
    388

    Default according to my books

    Quote Originally Posted by robs View Post
    But I now have an intermittent problem with the indicators. They seem to work fine when I first start the car after sitting overnight, but if I turn it off and start it again, they sometimes (usually) don't work. They work perfectly every time when you go from off to ignition. If you just touch the starter and let it back to the ignition position they often won't work. My not too wonderful workaround when I find them not working is to drive along, turn the ignition off and back on, release the clutch and let the car push-start itself again. This has worked every time. So everything seems to point to the starter.

    99.9% likely that this is due to something I did in wiring up the relays, so I'll describe what I did.

    Relay 2. Starter.
    Simplicity itself. Unplugged wire 76 from the starter solenoid and plugged it into a wire to the control terminal of a second relay. Brought another wire from the controlled terminal back to the starter solenoid. Other two wires shared with Relay 1.

    Now that I type this, I realise I can simply plug wire 76 back onto the starter and that eliminates relay 2 from the equation. I'll give that a go and see what happens.

    Rob.
    Wire 46 is the starter solenoid, wire 76 is the fuel pump

    cheers Pete

    I am gunna get another 403 on the road........one day

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Blue Mountains, NSW
    Posts
    437

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PCOATES505 View Post
    Wire 46 is the starter solenoid, wire 76 is the fuel pump

    cheers Pete
    I think a "Doh" is called for. Sheesh, I edited that last posting to make it consistent with the first -- both wrong, but they are consistent! 46 it is -- haven't wired the fuel pump to the starter.

    Just as an aside, where did this numbering business come from? I think my (long sold) '69 404 had numbered wires, and I'm sure the 504s do. Everything non-Pug that I've worked on has had various combinations of coloured stripes and, while it can be a bit tricky to tell green with yellow stripe from green with white stripe when the wire gets to a certain age, Peugeot's setup easily beats them for difficulty. You have to pull and twist at the wire just to find the number, then decide is that 7B or 78 or could it maybe be 18, or perhaps it's the other way round and it should be 8L. And all this while in the standard sparkie pose with your arse on the seat but your head among the pedals, brandishing a torch. Just as an aside you understand. Just want to know who to write nasty words about in my will, that sort of thing.

    Have fun,

    Rob.

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! PCOATES505's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Gunbower
    Posts
    388

    Default goed way back

    Quote Originally Posted by robs View Post
    I think a "Doh" is called for. Sheesh, I edited that last posting to make it consistent with the first -- both wrong, but they are consistent! 46 it is -- haven't wired the fuel pump to the starter.

    Just as an aside, where did this numbering business come from? I think my (long sold) '69 404 had numbered wires, and I'm sure the 504s do. Everything non-Pug that I've worked on has had various combinations of coloured stripes and, while it can be a bit tricky to tell green with yellow stripe from green with white stripe when the wire gets to a certain age, Peugeot's setup easily beats them for difficulty. You have to pull and twist at the wire just to find the number, then decide is that 7B or 78 or could it maybe be 18, or perhaps it's the other way round and it should be 8L. And all this while in the standard sparkie pose with your arse on the seat but your head among the pedals, brandishing a torch. Just as an aside you understand. Just want to know who to write nasty words about in my will, that sort of thing.

    Have fun,

    Rob.
    Rob I know 403's have numbered wires, but at least they use different colours, I remember a mechanic friend telling me his Western Star truck had "all" white wires in the loom.
    cheers Pete

    I am gunna get another 403 on the road........one day

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts catshamlet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Hiding in a bush somewhere in ENGLAND
    Posts
    5,312

    Default

    I know a dozy bŁ%$*A+d who wiped one or two of the numbers off, thinking they were crap on the wire.
    Not much better when I wear me specs either.




    Mike.
    Started out with nothing, still got most of it left.

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Blue Mountains, NSW
    Posts
    437

    Default

    Turns out the car was just fooling with me yesterday. It worked when I wired the starter direct instead of through the relay, but only for a test. Obvious in hindsight, but I should have known it would only play up again when it mattered, e.g. pulling away after voting this morning. At least there were plenty of cars keen to get my parking spot, and nobody seemed grumpy that I didn't indicate.

    In a way it's a relief -- I couldn't see how the starter circuit could get the blinkers out of whack. The ignition circuit is much more complicated. Happy, happy...

    Have fun,

    Robert.

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Blue Mountains, NSW
    Posts
    437

    Default Solved

    Tom's wiring diagram was much easier to read than the one I was working with and, after working through all the possibilities I could see, there seemed no way that the problem was in my changes. So it was back to working it out from scratch.

    So, symptom: accessories (blinkers, wipers, radio) intermittently don't work after starting the engine. But they always work when you just turn on the ignition. I have become pretty familiar with the wiring diagram, and the tachymetric relay is the only component that would care whether or not the engine was running, but it has no effect on the accessories. Can't be that.

    Looking at the accessories' power circuit there is a relay under direct control of the ignition switch, and that's it. And that was it. The ignition switch. A bit of fiddling and it turned out that if you worked your way clockwise into the "ignition on" position the accessories would work. If it came anti-clockwise back from the "start" position, they wouldn't. So I have an easy workaround for the moment -- give the key a slight jiggle after starting.

    I'll look into it further at the weekend, but I expect there's an arc of conductor in the switch that is meant to go out of contact with the accessories while the engine's cranking, and reconnect after it starts. Some slop somewhere in there means that it just misses on that last step.

    Trust Mr Murphy to do this just after I have been playing with the electrics. And I am kicking myself that I didn't try fiddling with the key -- but I was so sure it was my wiring job.

    And many thanks again to Tom.

    Have fun,

    Rob.

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Melbourne / Caulfield
    Posts
    19,211

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by robs View Post
    Tom's wiring diagram was much easier to read than the one I was working with and, after working through all the possibilities I could see, there seemed no way that the problem was in my changes. So it was back to working it out from scratch.

    So, symptom: accessories (blinkers, wipers, radio) intermittently don't work after starting the engine. But they always work when you just turn on the ignition. I have become pretty familiar with the wiring diagram, and the tachymetric relay is the only component that would care whether or not the engine was running, but it has no effect on the accessories. Can't be that.

    Looking at the accessories' power circuit there is a relay under direct control of the ignition switch, and that's it. And that was it. The ignition switch. A bit of fiddling and it turned out that if you worked your way clockwise into the "ignition on" position the accessories would work. If it came anti-clockwise back from the "start" position, they wouldn't. So I have an easy workaround for the moment -- give the key a slight jiggle after starting.

    I'll look into it further at the weekend, but I expect there's an arc of conductor in the switch that is meant to go out of contact with the accessories while the engine's cranking, and reconnect after it starts. Some slop somewhere in there means that it just misses on that last step.


    Trust Mr Murphy to do this just after I have been playing with the electrics. And I am kicking myself that I didn't try fiddling with the key -- but I was so sure it was my wiring job.

    And many thanks again to Tom.

    Have fun,

    Rob.
    If the blinkers share a power feed with the tachometric relay, then it's possible it is voltage drop issue.

    When not running = no load from tachometric relay/ fuel injection stuff

    When running = additional load from all the injection electrics and hence voltage drop.
    The less one interacts with rude, ignorant, critical and argumentative members. The more peaceful life becomes.

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Blue Mountains, NSW
    Posts
    437

    Default

    Thanks robmac. I wasn't clear enough in my last posting. The problem is the ignition switch. It makes good contact with the accessories terminal when it goes clockwise, bad contact when it goes anticlockwise (back from the "start" pos), so just giving the key a slight twist clockwise after starting and everything works.

    I'll see if I can't get it working really properly at the weekend. At least the Megasquirt has a good steady voltage now and things are noticeably smoother on that side.

    Have fun,

    Rob.

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Blue Mountains, NSW
    Posts
    437

    Default

    I took out the ignition switch yesterday and, plugging in an ohmmeter, was able to verify that the "ignition on" position was a bit temperamental. Wiggle the key this way, 0 resistance, wiggle it that way, infinite, all while staying within the "on" position.

    I partially dismantled it, but was reluctant to unclip the plastic cap (lest everything go sproing). But I took the opportunity to give the barrel a good dose of graphite, then carefully reassembled it.

    Testing with the ohmmeter, there are still non-conductive points, but you have to have your hand on the key to hold it there.

    Seems OK. I suspect the contact is not in great shape, but hopefully the new relay means it'll get no worse.

    Have fun,

    Rob.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •