205 Si Brake Upgrade
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Thread: 205 Si Brake Upgrade

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default 205 Si Brake Upgrade

    Hi All,

    When I acquired my Si/GTi hybrid 6 months ago I created a thread here to ask about improving the braking performance of the vehicle. I was inundated with responses suggesting I should just drive it for a while. Well I've done that, and come to the conclusion that the brakes (slotted Si discs, DS2500s and stock rear drums) are inadequate. I've tested against a number of modern cars and the Si falls well short of the performance I'm looking for and certainly doesn't take advantage of the upgraded rubber on the vehicle at present.

    So... the big question is what options are available for upgrading the brakes? To the best of my knowledge whilst the car has a GTi front subframe it has retained other Si bits like the driveshafts and hubs.

    I'd really appreciate any advice from people who have 'been there done that' as to:

    * What calipers should be run to fit under 14" Rallye wheels (wheel weights on the outside, incidentally). What fabrication, if any, is required to make these fit? Part numbers?

    * What discs should be run? What cars do they come off and what are the part numbers?

    * Are any modifications required to the front brake lines?

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    * Is a new / larger master cylinder required? If so, what vehicle is it from and what is the part #?

    * What (if anything) needs to be done to maintain rear braking balance (currently running stock Si drums)

    * Anything else I may have missed (e.g. single-use / stretch bolts that need to be replaced etc)


    Understand the above is a lot of questions but I do want to get this right and don't want to have to stuff around with the mechanic with parts that don't fit etc. Hopefully this can be the definitive thread for Si upgrades.

    Note that I don't want to 'overbrake' the car (it only has 90 HP!) with a ton of additional rotating and unsprung mass, but at the least I should be able to produce enough braking torque to be able to lock the sticky tyres from say 100km/h.

    Finally, I'd like to also scour the net for further info. As the Si was an Australian-only model, is there another model designation used in other countries for the same spec car? (e.g. XS in the UK?)

    Much appreciated
    1992 205 Si
    Current: shortened diff (4.4), short shifter, group N top mounts, rebuilt engine and box, solid engine mounts, 1.75" exhaust, strut brace, OMP wheel, GTI suspension & subframe front and rear, lowered 30mm front and rear, solid rear bush, Koni yellows, 306 XT front discs and calipers, ADR compliant braided brake lines, 14" rallye wheels, Dunlop Direzza Z1 Star Spec tyres, immobiliser

  2. #2
    I might be slow... DRTDVL's Avatar
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    can you confirm if you have the base model 205 hubs like the gt, xs, gr etc... or the 1.6 gti hubs.

    The base model hubs ran the smaller driveshafts but use the same offsets as the 1.9 gti hubs which will allow you to use the 306 xsi/s16 brakes (266mm), and i also beleive the 206 xs (266mm) (maybe gti also).

    If they are the 1.6 gti based hubs (same small driveshaft as the base model hubs, but different offsets for the disc's) then you i believe you can look at 405 brakes - you will need to confirm this as i can't remember 100% at the moment.

    Edit:

    The brembo site lists all the 1.6 205's as using the same disc offset from the hub face (17.9 /17.7 vs 7.9/7.7).

    You could look at getting a set of base model, hubs from a xs, gr, xr, gt, so you don't have to change the driveshafts and then run the more common fitting 306 brakes.

    Edit 2:

    From a bit more reading it looks like you can use the 1.9gti brakes but you have to use the 1.6 discs due to the different disc/hub offsets. The 1.9 caliper is meant to be better (again from the reading) but it's not going to help you in go bigger in size.
    Last edited by DRTDVL; 5th January 2011 at 01:51 PM.
    neilc likes this.

  3. #3
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    You have the base model hubs.
    Yes, Si brakes are inadequate, although mainly to do with caliper ratio rather than the disc size.
    You can bolt on brakes from a base model 306, a big improvement and with the pads and discs available you don't really need to go any further than that.
    I don't know whether the Si drums are up to it or not (my car has been stripped out and is pretty light at the rear) but I'll find out soon.
    Graham

  4. #4
    I might be slow... DRTDVL's Avatar
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    Graham - so the aussie 1.6 si ran base model hubs? not the 1.6 gti hubs, i couldn't find a listing anywhere for a 1.6 with base hub offsets for the discs.

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    1000+ Posts djvu205's Avatar
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    Default hubs

    i think the 1.6 gti hubs with the wider track, only came on the uk 1.6 gti. while on the subject, if you use base model hubs what drive shafts will fit? base model/si ones only?
    if you were to put a gti or mi16 gbox in an si will shafts be the same?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DRTDVL View Post
    Graham - so the aussie 1.6 si ran base model hubs? not the 1.6 gti hubs, i couldn't find a listing anywhere for a 1.6 with base hub offsets for the discs.
    Australian series 1 and 2 GTi 1.9s were the 1.6 GTi with a detuned 1.9 engine, so had the wide front rack as per the European 1.6 GTi.
    The Si was a base model but with XU engine and BE gearbox.
    The front springs are uprated from the base model.
    The closest thing to the Si in Europe is probably the auto.
    Graham

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by djvu205 View Post
    i think the 1.6 gti hubs with the wider track, only came on the uk 1.6 gti. while on the subject, if you use base model hubs what drive shafts will fit? base model/si ones only?
    if you were to put a gti or mi16 gbox in an si will shafts be the same?
    Si shafts are the same as Aus S1,S2 GTi or European 1.6 GTi.
    If you use Si hubs you can then use these smaller driveshafts with the bigger brakes.
    Shafts are all the same where they go into the gearbox, just the outers are bigger for the Aus S3 and all the European 1.9 GTis.

    Base model cars with the TU engine, MA gearbox would use different driveshafts again I would think.

    Graham

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    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Also invest in a disc brake rear end. I found a massive difference in braking effect doing just that. Also, go with the suggested 306 calipers etc. Cam
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
    91 205 Si
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    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/res...-race-car.html

  9. #9
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    Thanks guys. In the 'for sale' section there is currently the below available:

    "pair of bosch calipers off a 2005 206. pads and 266mm rotors included"

    Any idea whether these would fit the 205 without needing an upgraded master cylinder? The seller says they bolted right up with no issues but not sure if they were ever run.
    1992 205 Si
    Current: shortened diff (4.4), short shifter, group N top mounts, rebuilt engine and box, solid engine mounts, 1.75" exhaust, strut brace, OMP wheel, GTI suspension & subframe front and rear, lowered 30mm front and rear, solid rear bush, Koni yellows, 306 XT front discs and calipers, ADR compliant braided brake lines, 14" rallye wheels, Dunlop Direzza Z1 Star Spec tyres, immobiliser

  10. #10
    I might be slow... DRTDVL's Avatar
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    It should bolt straight up we used a 206 setup on a 205 here, the guy running it didn't upgrade the master and he's happy with it.

    Wow that aussie 1.6 is a real parts bin car, we got the euro spec 1.6gti's here (mine started off as one) and all our 1.9's are either proper UK imports as NZ new models or Jap imports running the detuned 1.9 motor you guys also got.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by cam85 View Post
    Also invest in a disc brake rear end. I found a massive difference in braking effect doing just that. Also, go with the suggested 306 calipers etc. Cam
    Hi Cam, what was involved in the rear disc implementation for you?
    1992 205 Si
    Current: shortened diff (4.4), short shifter, group N top mounts, rebuilt engine and box, solid engine mounts, 1.75" exhaust, strut brace, OMP wheel, GTI suspension & subframe front and rear, lowered 30mm front and rear, solid rear bush, Koni yellows, 306 XT front discs and calipers, ADR compliant braided brake lines, 14" rallye wheels, Dunlop Direzza Z1 Star Spec tyres, immobiliser

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by DRTDVL View Post
    It should bolt straight up we used a 206 setup on a 205 here, the guy running it didn't upgrade the master and he's happy with it.
    Thanks DRTDVL - that is useful info.

    One final question for Graham - are you aware of any difference between the brake master cylinder on an Si vs GTi?

    If there are no differences then sounds as though the 206 setup is a viable option!
    1992 205 Si
    Current: shortened diff (4.4), short shifter, group N top mounts, rebuilt engine and box, solid engine mounts, 1.75" exhaust, strut brace, OMP wheel, GTI suspension & subframe front and rear, lowered 30mm front and rear, solid rear bush, Koni yellows, 306 XT front discs and calipers, ADR compliant braided brake lines, 14" rallye wheels, Dunlop Direzza Z1 Star Spec tyres, immobiliser

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    Quote Originally Posted by Langers View Post
    Thanks DRTDVL - that is useful info.

    One final question for Graham - are you aware of any difference between the brake master cylinder on an Si vs GTi?

    If there are no differences then sounds as though the 206 setup is a viable option!
    Not aware of any difference, just give it a try and see how it goes.
    Graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by Langers View Post
    Thanks DRTDVL - that is useful info.

    One final question for Graham - are you aware of any difference between the brake master cylinder on an Si vs GTi?

    If there are no differences then sounds as though the 206 setup is a viable option!
    I'm not sure about the Aussie spec SI, but every solid disc 205 or 309 I've seen in NZ (all either jap or UK spec) has a 19mm master cylinder and 180mm booster, whereas the vented disc cars have a 20.6mm master cylinder and bigger booster.

    Many of the Japanese spec SIs (if not all) have the entire GTI front suspension and brakes (apart from softer and taller springs), combined with the low compression 1.9 and auto box, but I understand that most (if not all?) aussie ones use the swaybar located front suspension and solid discs.

    Interestingly the jap spec 309 SI uses the GTI control arms and swaybar, but only the solid discs and smaller master cylinder and booster. I only know this because I just stripped one for parts for my 205s.

    The jap spec SIs seem to be more of a parts bin than the aussie stuff.

    Dave
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    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    You need at least a 22mm m/cylinder for the 266mm upgrade. ie four port 306.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    You need at least a 22mm m/cylinder for the 266mm upgrade. ie four port 306.
    Ta... and your thoughts on how it would work with the standard Si drums?

    Is part # 652PC0180 from the below site what you think I need for the master cylinder? (sorry couldn't get a direct link)

    http://www.gsfcarparts.com/index.asp

    Or if anyone has the actual Peugeot part # that would be great!
    Last edited by Langers; 6th January 2011 at 09:11 PM.
    1992 205 Si
    Current: shortened diff (4.4), short shifter, group N top mounts, rebuilt engine and box, solid engine mounts, 1.75" exhaust, strut brace, OMP wheel, GTI suspension & subframe front and rear, lowered 30mm front and rear, solid rear bush, Koni yellows, 306 XT front discs and calipers, ADR compliant braided brake lines, 14" rallye wheels, Dunlop Direzza Z1 Star Spec tyres, immobiliser

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Langers View Post
    Ta... and your thoughts on how it would work with the standard Si drums?

    Is part # 652PC0180 from the below site what you think I need for the master cylinder? (sorry couldn't get a direct link)

    http://www.gsfcarparts.com/index.asp

    Or if anyone has the actual Peugeot part # that would be great!
    There would be less rear brakes for a given pedal pressure.
    I would assume the fronts would give better braking for the same pedal pressure as before so the net affect is less rear braking. The compensators for these brakes (Si drums) are in the cylinders, don't ask me how this works, so you may need to fit other cylinders.
    The standard master works well with the base model 306 brakes , didn't catch the bit about the 266mm brakes.
    Why wouldn't you just bolt on the base 306 brakes?
    Graham

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Why wouldn't you just bolt on the base 306 brakes?
    Graham
    Cause there are some 206 brakes for sale now, and I haven't seen any 306 brakes.

    But point taken will ask David Cavanagh if he has any base 306 ones...

    Is anyone able to quantify how bad the loss of braking in the rear will be and the impact on braking performance and vehicle stability?
    1992 205 Si
    Current: shortened diff (4.4), short shifter, group N top mounts, rebuilt engine and box, solid engine mounts, 1.75" exhaust, strut brace, OMP wheel, GTI suspension & subframe front and rear, lowered 30mm front and rear, solid rear bush, Koni yellows, 306 XT front discs and calipers, ADR compliant braided brake lines, 14" rallye wheels, Dunlop Direzza Z1 Star Spec tyres, immobiliser

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    My son is building a 205 GTi rally car , using a 205 Si front suspenion as the rear suspenion .( saves weight , disc brakes onto rear , fully adjustable , better choice of shocks and you dont bend a non repairable rear beam each time you spin and hit a rock.)

    At the moment he is missing a pair of Si front discs and also needs the outer ends of a 205 Si drive shaft ( small splines ) this is to be cut down and used to hold the wheel bearing together ,

    Does anybody have a half decent pair of discs and / or a pair of stuffed drive shafts then please PM me.
    Peugeot 504 Rally car V6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rally View Post
    My son is building a 205 GTi rally car , using a 205 Si front suspenion as the rear suspenion .( saves weight , disc brakes onto rear , fully adjustable , better choice of shocks and you dont bend a non repairable rear beam each time you spin and hit a rock.)

    At the moment he is missing a pair of Si front discs and also needs the outer ends of a 205 Si drive shaft ( small splines ) this is to be cut down and used to hold the wheel bearing together ,

    Does anybody have a half decent pair of discs and / or a pair of stuffed drive shafts then please PM me.
    PM sent

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    Quote Originally Posted by Langers View Post
    Is anyone able to quantify how bad the loss of braking in the rear will be and the impact on braking performance and vehicle stability?
    It will probably feel a lot better. I find the drum brake cars have too much rear bias anyway, which gives a crap pedal feel (all that fluid movement in the rear cylinders). The rear disc setup feels a lot better not because of any increased braking at the rear, but because the reduction in fluid movement gives a firmer pedal with much better feel.

    On my autocross/motorkhana 1360cc 205 I have the rear brakes blocked off completely and the brakes feel miles better than standard. Even whilst driving in reverse the car brakes fine, because there's so much weight on the front axle.

    On my SI road car (has GTI front brakes) I have Bendix CT pads (Ceramic-Titanium) on the front which have improved the pedal feel a lot, but I'm still thinking of having the rear wheel cylinders sleeved down, to reduce rear bias. Interestingly base model 309s user smaller rear wheel cylinders than base 205s even though the front brakes are identical and the car is heavier with more rear weight bias.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  22. #22
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    Thanks Dave, that's great info,

    Waiting on David Cavanagh to see whether he has the parts in stock otherwise will start looking at others - EAI perhaps?
    1992 205 Si
    Current: shortened diff (4.4), short shifter, group N top mounts, rebuilt engine and box, solid engine mounts, 1.75" exhaust, strut brace, OMP wheel, GTI suspension & subframe front and rear, lowered 30mm front and rear, solid rear bush, Koni yellows, 306 XT front discs and calipers, ADR compliant braided brake lines, 14" rallye wheels, Dunlop Direzza Z1 Star Spec tyres, immobiliser

  23. #23
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    Gents,

    When we speak of 'base model' 306 brakes, which of the below should I be looking for?

    Or perhaps does anyone have the official Peugeot part #s that I should be looking for discs, pads & calipers?

    Appreciate the ongoing assistance - once this is all over I'll ensure all the info is nicely consolidated for future reference!

    Pads

    P425107 BRAKE PADS FRONT-P306 S16/ST/XSI(N3)VALE
    P425107A BRAKE PADS FRT-P306(N3) WITH REAR DISCS
    P425122 BRAKE PADS FRONT-P306 XR/XT(N3) O.E.
    P425122D BRAKE PADS FRONT-P306 XR/XT(N3) DISCTECH
    P425143 BRAKE PADS FRONT-P306 GTI6
    P425152 BRAKE PADS FNT-206 GTI/ LATE 306 BOSCH
    P425154 BRAKE PADS FNT-P306 N5 EXC GTI GIRLING
    P425154D BRAKE PADS FRONT-P306N5 EXC GTI GIRLING
    P425167 BRAKE PADS FRONT P306 N5 1.8 AUTO ATE


    Discs
    P4246A7 FNT B/DISC-P205 91on/306 some 206 XR XT
    P4246G1 FRONT BRAKE DISC-P306 GTI6
    P4246R3 FNT B/DISC-P405/306 some /206 GTI TU5JP4
    P4246G6 REAR BR DISC-P306 XT/S16/XSi 206 GTI/307
    P424732 REAR BRAKE DRUM-P306 GIRL + BEND
    1992 205 Si
    Current: shortened diff (4.4), short shifter, group N top mounts, rebuilt engine and box, solid engine mounts, 1.75" exhaust, strut brace, OMP wheel, GTI suspension & subframe front and rear, lowered 30mm front and rear, solid rear bush, Koni yellows, 306 XT front discs and calipers, ADR compliant braided brake lines, 14" rallye wheels, Dunlop Direzza Z1 Star Spec tyres, immobiliser

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Langers View Post
    Thanks Dave, that's great info,

    Waiting on David Cavanagh to see whether he has the parts in stock otherwise will start looking at others - EAI perhaps?
    Just get the front brakes of a 1.8 8 valve from the wreckers.
    Graham

  25. #25
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    Interestingly base model 309s user smaller rear wheel cylinders than base 205s even though the front brakes are identical and the car is heavier with more rear weight bias.

    Dave[/QUOTE]

    This could be because the 205 base model cars have compensators built into the rear cylinders.
    Graham

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