My 205 big brake upgrade
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts PugMonkey's Avatar
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    Default My 205 big brake upgrade

    Well I'll try one more post as a see how it goes. we have all posted a lot of "how to's" on here only to have it all gone. ..anyway........ I have been gathering components for my brake upgrade. I ended up with the following 307 HDI calipers - from wreckers 307 HDI discs - new 283mm 406 23.81mm master cylinder Lucas / TRW pads After a good clean up, I am ready t put them on tomorrow. I will post more pics tomorrow as I work through the job

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  2. #2
    I might be slow... DRTDVL's Avatar
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    I'd highly recommend doing something to the rear brakes now... As they will basically be doing nothing with the increase in master size.

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts PugMonkey's Avatar
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    Hey DRTDVL, you have done this upgrade? I was thinking it would be the opposite. With the increase in MC size, i will be pushing more fluid into a smaller (than the front brakes) brake piston, thus activating harder?

    I do have plans for the rears but really need the front doing first. When the 16v went in, all I could afford was to machine the discs and get a cheap pad. When I took the wheel of last night, I noticed the disc has hardly been used so I'm thinking pads are to soft of the MC is not functioning correctly. (or air still in the line)

    In a perfect world, I could take the front calipers and discs from the front & put them on the rear but that wont happen.

    I am also thinking that I refurbish the rear brakes with new discs and pads, and remove the compensator so they receive a greater line pressure but I have not heard of this being done.

    I will suck it and see for the first few months.
    ....now watch a Peugeot turn into a corner!

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger!
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    i got my brakes off a C4 Citroen 2.0l petrol which are the same as the 307 brakes. the caliper retaining bolts required a T55 torx socket which i got from repco for around $10. i also used threadlock on the bolts.
    Andrew.

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  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! SilverGTi_6's Avatar
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    Hey mate,

    This is the same setup I had on my 205gti6. MASSIVE improvement over standard. You will be impressed.
    Lotus Evora
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  6. #6
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    aaww thanks guys. I am half way through it and everything is fitting so well.
    ....now watch a Peugeot turn into a corner!

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    1000+ Posts PugMonkey's Avatar
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    Hey can I ask you guys what you did with the flexible brake line. The 205 on seems a bit short now.

    If I route it around the back of the strut it's ok but to short for it's normal position.

    Thanks,

    Moo
    ....now watch a Peugeot turn into a corner!

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts PugMonkey's Avatar
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    Default Omg!

    Wow what a difference. Just hang on a tick 'till I can put my face back on!

    Easiest mod I have ever done. I was picturing that I would have shims to make, brackets to engineer but no, it all went straight on. (as you can tell I'm a big believer in Murphy!)

    I bled the MC before it went on the car. I still feel a little bit of sponge but i will take it for a good run to bed in tomorrow.

    The warning about the inner wheel balance weights is correct. There is no room for them on the inside of the rim







    I hate the disc position screws!







    ....now watch a Peugeot turn into a corner!

  9. #9
    sans witticism SLC206's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PugMonkey View Post
    I hate the disc position screws!
    For some reason, people seem to think they are important and do them up really tight and use threadlock on them as well.

    Why? So you have the pleasure of removing them with an easy out.

    Thanks for the posts
    Regards,

    Simon

    2018 308 GTi 2011 DS3 DSport
    ----
    2014 208 GTi 2007 207 GTi 2004 206 GTi180 2000 206 GTi 1995 306 XT

    www.peugeotclub.asn.au

  10. #10
    Gone Fishin' Haakon's Avatar
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    They're bloody big brakes on a 205!

    I have these on my series 2 Xsara, and I thought that was overkill...

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    I notice you have sold the Elise already !!!
    jr20516v

    Now:
    Exige SC [modded], 205 Si. 205 GTi , Megane R26 LY , Megane 225 [modded ]


    Previous: Honda EP3 Supercharged , 205 x34 [ including MI16 TURBO, 8v TURBO, CTI, 16V+TB's, 8V+TB's,] Fiat X1-9 X3, Beta coupes x5, Lancia Gamma coupe, GTI-R, Corvette C4, Fiero x5, Alpine GTA turbo, r5 GTT Dimma, 2cv ripple nose, Lotus Elise, 205 Dimma TT, Cliosport 172.x2, Clio rs 200

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    Quote Originally Posted by jr20516v View Post
    I notice you have sold the Elise already !!!
    Sorry....this was directed at Silver in post above :}
    jr20516v

    Now:
    Exige SC [modded], 205 Si. 205 GTi , Megane R26 LY , Megane 225 [modded ]


    Previous: Honda EP3 Supercharged , 205 x34 [ including MI16 TURBO, 8v TURBO, CTI, 16V+TB's, 8V+TB's,] Fiat X1-9 X3, Beta coupes x5, Lancia Gamma coupe, GTI-R, Corvette C4, Fiero x5, Alpine GTA turbo, r5 GTT Dimma, 2cv ripple nose, Lotus Elise, 205 Dimma TT, Cliosport 172.x2, Clio rs 200

  13. #13
    I might be slow... DRTDVL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PugMonkey View Post
    Hey DRTDVL, you have done this upgrade? I was thinking it would be the opposite. With the increase in MC size, i will be pushing more fluid into a smaller (than the front brakes) brake piston, thus activating harder?

    I do have plans for the rears but really need the front doing first. When the 16v went in, all I could afford was to machine the discs and get a cheap pad. When I took the wheel of last night, I noticed the disc has hardly been used so I'm thinking pads are to soft of the MC is not functioning correctly. (or air still in the line)

    In a perfect world, I could take the front calipers and discs from the front & put them on the rear but that wont happen.

    I am also thinking that I refurbish the rear brakes with new discs and pads, and remove the compensator so they receive a greater line pressure but I have not heard of this being done.

    I will suck it and see for the first few months.
    Yeah i have.

    I used the 307 brakes on my old 306 and now the 205 racecar.

    This should help what i'm talking about with the master:


    As the rear piston size has remained the same as you have increased the master size you have decreased the force acting on the rear caliper.

    I'm now running my old 1.6 front brakes on the rear of the car with an adjustable bias valve as the 1.6 fronts are a little too strong now so i can dial it back in the wet.

    The larger front brakes (both piston and diameter) will create more front bias now also.

    The biggest improvement would be to get some good quality pads and higher temp brake fluid.

    The braided lines do make the pedal feel nicer.

    I'll be looking for some xsi/s16 266mm discs/cailpers later or get some proper 2/4 pot calipers later as the 307 brakes are just silly heavy for the 205. You will also be able to get a better selection of performance pads.

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! SilverGTi_6's Avatar
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    I believe the 307 brakes are also used on the GTi180. There are a fair few performance pad options for the 180 if u search overseas.
    Lotus Evora
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    Lotus Sport 111, C4 VTS, RCZ, 205 GTi, Volvo C30 T5-R, Honda S2000, 206 GTi180, Lotus Elise 111R, 205 GTi 6, Manual 406 coupe, 306 GTi 6, 405 MI16 (twice!), 505 GR

  15. #15
    I might be slow... DRTDVL's Avatar
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    Hmmm not to sure, i know the gti-6 caliper is different than the 307 as it has a bigger piston in it although they are the same size.

    I haven't looked at if the 180 is the same as the gti-6 or the 307.

    I know Carbone Lorraine do pads for most of the pug range, i'll be giving them a try when i replace the current pads.

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger!
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    I've been using Ferodo DS2500, which worked well. I'll be switching to DS3000 or Carbon Lorraine soon for track work. I've found the DS2500 didn't last quite as well as I was hoping as my braking skill and balls (lateness) has improved. 205 is quite a bit lighter too though, so may be fine with the 2500's.
    I'm pretty sure the 307 is the same as the 180 for pads.
    Last edited by speaksgeek; 31st December 2010 at 11:51 AM.

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts PugMonkey's Avatar
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    Well, I went for a blast today and for the first hundred km's, i let them bed in with some short sharp bursts. On the way home from Beaudesert to Canungra there are a few areas that can work the brakes rather well. Without being stupid, i deliberately left the braking a little later than usual and I was very impressed. Great pedal feel and instant response.

    I will be heading off to the track soon with a few mates so I can't wait to hammer it through there with them. I just hope now that I can keep up with the car as it's been a while.

    I will let you know what track we are going to. Maybe organize a VW V's Peugeot meet and let some Euro's thrash it out for a trophy.



    As for the pad selection, yeah I have seen heaps of top stuff for the track but the car wont be on the track all the time as it's my daily driver. That's why I went for the Lucas / TRW. Very minimal warm up and the pure size of the pad will be able to maintain any track work. They are a softer pad so disc wear will also be minimal.

    @DRTDVL Your front discs you put on the rear? Do you think it would be the same for the 1.9 discs? The ones I just pulled off the car are 1.9 so I'll be stoiked if I can put them on the rear!

    Happy new year to all.
    Last edited by PugMonkey; 31st December 2010 at 06:07 PM.
    ....now watch a Peugeot turn into a corner!

  18. #18
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    If its QR you are off to..... be very careful of corner one in a 205 Mark.

    My 2c re the 307 brakes........IMHO i would have just gone some top pads like Endless or Pagid and be done with it. The 307's plus the speedlines add up to approx 15/16 kg in unsprung weight each corner.
    If you get serious at the track [and i'm sure you will as its a hoot ] you will wish for less unsprung.

    Happy New Year to ya too !! :}
    jr20516v

    Now:
    Exige SC [modded], 205 Si. 205 GTi , Megane R26 LY , Megane 225 [modded ]


    Previous: Honda EP3 Supercharged , 205 x34 [ including MI16 TURBO, 8v TURBO, CTI, 16V+TB's, 8V+TB's,] Fiat X1-9 X3, Beta coupes x5, Lancia Gamma coupe, GTI-R, Corvette C4, Fiero x5, Alpine GTA turbo, r5 GTT Dimma, 2cv ripple nose, Lotus Elise, 205 Dimma TT, Cliosport 172.x2, Clio rs 200

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    I've used Endless pads with the 307 brakes on a 205, and it's just too much for the road. Whilst the combo gives staggering braking performance, the dust and the noise will spoil the experience very quickly. I ended up just fitting Greenstuff in order to keep the dust down.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  20. #20
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    My line was....Endless pads...and standard brakes {not Endless and 307}
    Sorry for any confusion.
    jr20516v

    Now:
    Exige SC [modded], 205 Si. 205 GTi , Megane R26 LY , Megane 225 [modded ]


    Previous: Honda EP3 Supercharged , 205 x34 [ including MI16 TURBO, 8v TURBO, CTI, 16V+TB's, 8V+TB's,] Fiat X1-9 X3, Beta coupes x5, Lancia Gamma coupe, GTI-R, Corvette C4, Fiero x5, Alpine GTA turbo, r5 GTT Dimma, 2cv ripple nose, Lotus Elise, 205 Dimma TT, Cliosport 172.x2, Clio rs 200

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Ah, yes, my bad reading. That's what happens when you don't wear your glasses!

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts PugMonkey's Avatar
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    Sorry for being simple, but I have heard of unsprung weight before but never have I read an explanation. How does it affect the car when weight is unsprung?
    ....now watch a Peugeot turn into a corner!

  23. #23
    al
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    Quote Originally Posted by PugMonkey View Post
    Sorry for being simple, but I have heard of unsprung weight before but never have I read an explanation. How does it affect the car when weight is unsprung?
    I'm not good with the theory, but in practice it dulls everything. On reflection they were total overkill, compromised feel and reduced the ability of the front end to do its job. Mid corner bumps seemed to really upset the car and i figured that the massive weight increase might be contributing. It is probably too low too, but i started by going back to 1.6 brakes with pagid pads. The brake feel is great - not as powerful, but not that far off and more than enough for a light car.

    It was also behaving a bit strangely when accelerating hard which is better on the standard brakes... plus you get the wider front track with 1.6 hubs.

    If you want bling and strong modern brakes then go ahead, but i would start by spending a bit extra on pads and see how you go.

    My main reason for changing was so i could fit 13" wheels so needed better clearance... but now i can't find any PTS wheels and the other advantages have become apparent. They are a cheap alternative to light race setups, but not a good solution just because of the massive weight.
    405 Mi16 - Sold - Now back
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  24. #24
    1000+ Posts PugMonkey's Avatar
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    I'm still not understanding how an extra 5kg per wheel (unsprung) can dull everything. What if it were to do with getting a different style of rim that were heavier - same diff? or rim and tyre combination - same diff? Momentum wise i can understand as there is an equation for it but unsprung weight - sorry still not understanding.
    ....now watch a Peugeot turn into a corner!

  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Greater unsprung weight means that the suspension has to work harder to restrain the wheel when it bounces. It may not make much difference on a billiard table track but when you hit potholes the shock absorbers will be stressed and the wheel may bottom out, bouncing the car. Also the ratio between the unsprung/sprung weight will be altered and with a light car the car may bounce more than previously with the risk of losing traction. There is a reason engineers try to keep unsprung weight to a minimum as it makes the suspension problems easier to design out.

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