Seeking Advice Re: 406 TD 2.1. Air Leak/fuel
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  1. #1
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    Default Seeking Advice Re: 406 TD 2.1. Air Leak/fuel

    Hi Everyone. I wonder if any of you can assist with advice.
    I have a 2.1 TD 406 ST DT Estate car that I have had for a while. Purchased this car with a dying distributor pump (too many bad fuel episodes by previous owner who appeared to be blissfully unaware of the need to be careful about where you buy diesel) and have since rectified this issue with a bench tested 2nd hand pump from the UK that is working beautifully. The car is impressive, but I feel that the newer Pugs are not in the same street in terms of toughness and quality.
    Anyway- a recent drive to Brisbane from Canberra served to confirm how nice the 406 is- but a dud batch of fuel (Tenterfield BP thank you) necessitated removal of the fuel tank and clean, new Purflux fuel filter and clean fuel (BP Yatala). Anyway, there has since occured an ongoing issue with bubbles of air evident in the supply pipe (filter housing to pump) that appears to contribute to an air cell gathering itself inside the pump (working assumption). Of course I have checked and added fresh hose clamps and copper washers where indicated and needed- and the problem has lessened- but is still evident, with symptoms becoming evident on sustained running after about 15min from cold. Symptoms have been interpreted as fuel starvation, periodic temporary lower power, terrible noises from underneath the bonnet that resolve when the car is allowed to idle.
    So I am guessing that the fuel lines at one or more points between the tank and pump are still permitting ingress of air.
    Does anyone have a clue? I understand that the primer assembly sometimes fail 'discretely'.... but I note that there is nill fuel smell or leaking at any juncture. Symptoms resolved entirely after I pulled the fuel tank pickup/sender assembly to inspect (and was disappointed to note that there appears to be no lift pump on this assembly- so have no idear where that is...). Symptoms 'onset' about two hours later after doing this.
    So maybe it sucks air along the line 'somewhere' or fuel pressure is the issue. Any thoughts????

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  2. #2
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    because there is no lift pump the injection pump sucks the fuel up from the tank
    therefore if there is a leak it will suck air in rather than pushing diesel out
    you could try covering each joint with grease until the bubbles stop. Do them one at a time so that you know which one is causing the problem.
    I don't know what type of bleed plunger the 2.1 has, my old 305 diesel broke down once due to a split diaphram inside the plunger/filter head and what can sometimes get you home is to cover the plunger/filter with cling film and hold it in place with an elastic band. This stops the air ingress.

    I'm afraid these things can be difficult to diagnose and on one VW diesel that I had I had to change all the pipework, the filter and filter housing and every joint in the system to get it to run right.

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    Default thank you for this

    what you say makes sense (fuel pump as lift pump) and the progressive solution with grease also is a good one- I was thinking of some sort of acrylic spray- clear coat or hairspray (I know this sounds a bit weird) on each of the unions to eliminate each one progressively.
    Such a small issue with disproportionate effects....
    I ended up driving about 1000km with the car doing this coming back from brisbane- muttering under my breath....but I got home alright.
    I wanted to avoid replacing the filter housing ($330 AUD and 76 Pounds Sterling plus 35 post) not to mention the pickup/sender unit for which I have not yet costed. This elimination gig may end up being terribly costly. Like I say, such a small problem, such large effects.
    Still wondering about the rubber 'squeeze' primer assembly though...

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    for the rubber primer (i should have read your original post better)
    wrap it in cling film
    put tape along the last edge of the film
    at each end close it up with a tie wrap
    now no air can get into the rubber primer
    it's okay for a get-you-home or a diagnostic

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    The primer bulb on my diesel shat itself. Instead of replacing it with another unit that may possibly leak in the future, i just eliminated it from the system.
    Maybe you could try the same thing to see if it is the culprit??
    Ryan


    '94 Peugeot 405 SRDT

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    Default solution

    I'm am thinking of installing an electric fuel pump at or near the tank to create a positive fuel pressure ($79). This will identify leaks without expensive elimination procedures. Hate spending money on something that should be readily identifiable. What to do....

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    nothing to lose with this good suggestion....

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    Quote Originally Posted by svengali0 View Post
    Hi Everyone. I wonder if any of you can assist with advice.
    I have a 2.1 TD 406 ST DT Estate car that I have had for a while. Purchased this car with a dying distributor pump (too many bad fuel episodes by previous owner who appeared to be blissfully unaware of the need to be careful about where you buy diesel) and have since rectified this issue with a bench tested 2nd hand pump from the UK that is working beautifully. The car is impressive, but I feel that the newer Pugs are not in the same street in terms of toughness and quality.
    Anyway- a recent drive to Brisbane from Canberra served to confirm how nice the 406 is- but a dud batch of fuel (Tenterfield BP thank you) necessitated removal of the fuel tank and clean, new Purflux fuel filter and clean fuel (BP Yatala). Anyway, there has since occured an ongoing issue with bubbles of air evident in the supply pipe (filter housing to pump) that appears to contribute to an air cell gathering itself inside the pump (working assumption). Of course I have checked and added fresh hose clamps and copper washers where indicated and needed- and the problem has lessened- but is still evident, with symptoms becoming evident on sustained running after about 15min from cold. Symptoms have been interpreted as fuel starvation, periodic temporary lower power, terrible noises from underneath the bonnet that resolve when the car is allowed to idle.
    So I am guessing that the fuel lines at one or more points between the tank and pump are still permitting ingress of air.
    Does anyone have a clue? I understand that the primer assembly sometimes fail 'discretely'.... but I note that there is nill fuel smell or leaking at any juncture. Symptoms resolved entirely after I pulled the fuel tank pickup/sender assembly to inspect (and was disappointed to note that there appears to be no lift pump on this assembly- so have no idear where that is...). Symptoms 'onset' about two hours later after doing this.
    So maybe it sucks air along the line 'somewhere' or fuel pressure is the issue. Any thoughts????




    Your not going to believe this and quite frankly I find it hard to believe to myself but I'll try to explain.
    My car is the same as yours, 406 2.1 TD 7 seater family wagon with manuel gearbox. I've owned it for many years now and when I bought it I asked the usual question has the pump been replaced and was told yes it had and it was nice and clean and shinny compared to the rest of the engine so I guess it has been.

    Since I've had it its had a misfire at constant throttle, usually low speed, best I can discribe is its like a faulty spark plug or lead in a petrol car, thats what it felt like. So bad that you couldn't use 5 gear under 70kph. It also made this very loud horrible noise after it had been idling a while, like very loud diesel clatter, loud enough for everyone nearby to turn around, only lasted a second or two so not long enough to tell where it was coming from. Plus it was hard to start and blew alot of blue smoke.

    Every diesel expert I went to said the same thing that the pump was no good and it was sucking air and the noise was pinking like the timing was out, they all said it was because the fuel had to much air in it.

    I drive it like this for years feeling very dejected that I have to either spend serious money on it or get rid of it, Because of this I never really took care of anything else and didn't care about under bonnet noises and the alternator belt tensioners were getting noise and quite rattly but who cares it still goes. Eventually the rattles from the belt got so loud and the power steering and alternator stopped working so I had to do something and when I did it turned out to be the crank pully or harmonic ballancer had totally fallen to bits and come out in 2 halves without any trace of the rubber bonding.

    A new one was fitted and now its a different car, the misfire is gone, no loud noises, starts first thing and doesn't blow smoke. I can now criuse as low as 50koh in top gear and it just pulls away smoothly and will idle smoothly for ever with no pinking when accelerating. That pully for some strange reason has fixed all its problems and even the fuel ecomony has improved.

    We still don't know why, some say that with the diesel compression it really does need a harmonic ballancer to absorb the thump of diesel engine and it's needed to keep the pump timing correct.

    I've no idea, all I know is I now have a nice smooth economical car that I want to keep again.

    Its very easy to check, just draw a white line across the pully from the outside through the rubber to the inside and start it up, run the motor for 20-30 seconds and switch it off and see if your white line is still straight. If its not then you might have the same problem as me, I wish I'd found it years ago
    David Cavanagh

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I think everyone here has probably answered your problem. The primer bulb has most likely got a split in the diaphram. I just grabbed one from the local wreckers ( I think it was from a Hilux).

    The injection pump is about the only thing I don't worry about... you have the slugomatic, strut mounts, window winders and a hundred and one expensive other things that'll go wrong before a mechanical bosch pump

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    I think everyone here has probably answered your problem. The primer bulb has most likely got a split in the diaphram. I just grabbed one from the local wreckers ( I think it was from a Hilux).

    The injection pump is about the only thing I don't worry about... you have the slugomatic, strut mounts, window winders and a hundred and one expensive other things that'll go wrong before a mechanical bosch pump

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    You have a Bosch pump? You lucky dog, we have Lucas so yes we worry about our pumps.
    David Cavanagh

    FRENCH CONNECTION / PEUGEO WRECKING / RENOSPARES / CITROWRECK

    03 9338 8191 or 03 93354008

    34 KING St
    AIRPORT WEST
    VIC 3042


    [email protected]

    https://www.facebook.com/FrenchConect

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    Thanks David, Shane, Hillbilly ...and Dieselnutjob (yep technically I'm one of those too).

    All of you have offered excellent suggestions and advice.

    From long experience with unusual cars that are hard to get parts for, it always pays to eliminate the simple things first. The harmonic balancer suggestion (David) is interesting. I have recently replaced the timing belt and tensioners and the pully seemed good but the diagnostic you descibe is a really good test so will do this anyway.

    Shane, I (we) labour with the Lucas pump. I am fairly neurotic about fuel quality and kind of replace that expensive purflux fuel filter basically at the drop of a hat as this is cheap insurance. The car is lovely and the fuel economy is excellent perhaps not as good as a 405td but almost so. This model (D8 2.1) gets a bad rap- but like most cars, there are quirks and oddities that need to be attended to consistently. In my experience with French cars, service intervals really should be attended to. In this car's case, fuel quality is critical- and 'Flashlube' additive (tried most of them and this seems the best from subjective criteria) is also critical. The D8 2.1 does not deserve in my opinion the poor reputation but I do understand how the car has acquired it.

    Hillbilly and dieselnutjob- the primer bulb is a likely candidate. I can't see those nylon lines and their lovely connectors being the issue. I have not seen a primer like this on a Hilux so if you can tell me which model then maybe I can source one without having to get another from UK- but having said that, two recently came up for under $20 a piece so maybe I'm just being tight...

    So now (ie, in about six hours) I will be heading back to QLD but have to use my 3.9 Isuzu Diesel 110 Land Rover County and leave the Pug in the driveway here in Canberra. This is hard thing to do as the 110 is a terrible vehicle but has awesome reliability- perfect car for what it is- not a tourer...

    Please- keep the suggestions and posts coming. It's good to be part of this community.
    Cheers and have a safe and happy Christmas everyone.

    Steu


    oh. just remembered. I have about seven sets of Textar Brake Pads to suit a Citroen CX25 Reflex Estate (Diesel). These were new old stock from the Brisbane car parts firm 'Import Advantage'.
    Let me know if anyone is interested as these are very difficult to get and Textar are probably the best quality pad money can buy in my opinion (notwithstanding the old Bendix pads). I will post this on the Citroen section presently.

  12. #12
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by svengali0 View Post
    Thanks David, Shane, Hillbilly ...and Dieselnutjob (yep technically I'm one of those too).

    All of you have offered excellent suggestions and advice.

    From long experience with unusual cars that are hard to get parts for, it always pays to eliminate the simple things first. The harmonic balancer suggestion (David) is interesting. I have recently replaced the timing belt and tensioners and the pully seemed good but the diagnostic you descibe is a really good test so will do this anyway.

    Shane, I (we) labour with the Lucas pump. I am fairly neurotic about fuel quality and kind of replace that expensive purflux fuel filter basically at the drop of a hat as this is cheap insurance. The car is lovely and the fuel economy is excellent perhaps not as good as a 405td but almost so. This model (D8 2.1) gets a bad rap- but like most cars, there are quirks and oddities that need to be attended to consistently. In my experience with French cars, service intervals really should be attended to. In this car's case, fuel quality is critical- and 'Flashlube' additive (tried most of them and this seems the best from subjective criteria) is also critical. The D8 2.1 does not deserve in my opinion the poor reputation but I do understand how the car has acquired it.

    Hillbilly and dieselnutjob- the primer bulb is a likely candidate. I can't see those nylon lines and their lovely connectors being the issue. I have not seen a primer like this on a Hilux so if you can tell me which model then maybe I can source one without having to get another from UK- but having said that, two recently came up for under $20 a piece so maybe I'm just being tight...

    So now (ie, in about six hours) I will be heading back to QLD but have to use my 3.9 Isuzu Diesel 110 Land Rover County and leave the Pug in the driveway here in Canberra. This is hard thing to do as the 110 is a terrible vehicle but has awesome reliability- perfect car for what it is- not a tourer...

    Please- keep the suggestions and posts coming. It's good to be part of this community.
    Cheers and have a safe and happy Christmas everyone.

    Steu


    oh. just remembered. I have about seven sets of Textar Brake Pads to suit a Citroen CX25 Reflex Estate (Diesel). These were new old stock from the Brisbane car parts firm 'Import Advantage'.
    Let me know if anyone is interested as these are very difficult to get and Textar are probably the best quality pad money can buy in my opinion (notwithstanding the old Bendix pads). I will post this on the Citroen section presently.
    CX pads ?? Do you have front pads....?? The wagon here needs new rear rotors, but we have a set of pads for it. BTW: The rear pads & rotors are bigger on the wagon, so they won't suit a sedan, the fronts are identical Sadly the market for wagon parts is very small in Australia, so I'm surprised you found parts for one

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  13. #13
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    Default Citroen rear disc pads

    Hi Shane.
    I had a CX25 Diesel five speed estate car (Reflex) some years ago. My partner at the time worked at Import Advantage and there were boxes of left over stock to suit the CX that we purchased. The rear pads- to suit a 1985 car were left over after the restoration of the car. I only sold this car because it 'scissored' my Right leg just one too many times (love the car but some things that Citroen did in it's build left me seriously annoyed- crap handbrake mechanisms, stupid window hardware, unbelievable amount of difficulty finding correct steering arms/track rods etc and a door setup- crappy hinges, and a weighty door frame that wants to slice your leg off was the last straw- proper check mechanisms on the door are not negotiable).
    But, the rest of the car was almost completely awesome- leaving all 406's for dead for handling, braking, comfort, practicality, ability to forward water crossings that would embarrass most 4x4s and outright strength for towing (with a full mainframe chassis plus height control- absolutely gorgeous setup and pulled like a train with that wet sleeve, free revving diesel), carrying things like a full two door fridge and so forth (it was almost as good as a 404 wagon in these respects :-).


    Real engineering quality.... But, Ergonomics were disastrous...It was like they paid two 15 year old Star Trek addicts to consult on organising the interior and controls, seating, materials, carpet, door trims etc. It is however possible that we can't have it all! 404 wagon and DS 21 Safari notwithstanding.
    I guess it's now patently obvious that I have a love for older French wagons.....

    The car went to Kiama NSW in the end after I did a bare metal/re-colour (Spies-Hecker) to (code) 1996 Peugeot Deep Deep Blue Metallic and installed recaro seats and a momo wheel and a host of other work.
    The fellow there was a Citroen person (worse than I) with some other CX's to my understanding. He got a light green CX25ie four speed auto in the bargain all up for just $1500 more than I paid for the Reflex wagon originally.
    Love to hear how it's all going. I kind of regretted letting the wagon go but at the time, a several people commented that it looked like a hearse (yes they are massive- try doing a full bare metal on one- it took about 12 months running about three days a week on the job...).
    Then some dimwitted diesel mechanics in Springwood QLD actually laughed at me ('it looks like a hearse etc') while being unhelpful in relation to enquiry about fixing a small leak on the Rotodiesel DPA pump- bunch of post adolescent nitwits.
    From what I have learned, these injection systems are just about bulletproof and easy to work on. But some things (ie, pulling the pump down at home) are contra-indicated.

    Anyway, enough of the reminiscences.
    The left over pads for this car: Unclear whether there was a difference between the diesel estate 'Break' cars and the petrol- from memory I think there was (is). These pads have anti squeal material bonded to the metal plate surface or backing and measure from backing plate Width 82mm; Hgt 58mm- measured at the edge as the inner measure would include the scallop or half elipse and the top or outer section looks like a B without the long edge. This may be confusing but if you have one in your hand, it will make sense perhaps in a Citroen kind of way....

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