406 disaster
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Thread: 406 disaster

  1. #1
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    Default 406 disaster

    We live up a bush track and have to get through 5 creek crossings which are usually quite OK.
    Yesterday I left home at 6am, drove all day and returned at 9.30pm.
    It had been raining a fair bit during the day and the creeks were higher than I'd taken the car through before, but I managed OK.
    Today we went out and the creeks were a little lower, but on the return trip, I was very tired and let my wife drive.
    After the first crossing I gave her a bit of advice about keeping the revs up but when we got to the next one she kept the revs up, but went through too fast, being flustered by my hassling.
    We made it through, but a few yards out there was a kind of violent cough from the motor and we stopped.
    I mucked about for a bit, but finally opted to walk the couple of miles home to get the old Hilux.
    I towed it up to the top of a rise and had a go at roll starting, but although there was a slight ticking in 5th, the wheels locked in 4th.
    So I towed it all the way home and proceeded to have a look. First I took out the plugs, thinking it must be full of water, but no, it wouldn't turn over.
    I loosened the timing belt cover to have a pry, but the belt seems intact.
    I removed the starter and had a small pry upon the flywheel. And I got a spanner onto the mainshaft pulley bolt, but no, folks, she's seized solid.
    I took off the inlet hose and the aircleaner and the throttle body has a fair bit of water sitting in it.

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    I can only assume that she got a lungfull of water and something cracked or let go, probably dropped a valve.
    So here's the dilemma : I have a good engine that I got from Demannu. Should I just drop that in or should I take the head off and work out what needs fixing?
    If I put the other engine in I have a chance to get it done before xmas, as I only need timing belt etc. and oil and stuff, maybe an exhaust gasket.
    I think that's the logical way, and I'll investigate the seized engine later, to see if it might be fixed to put in my spare car with the blown to smithereens engine, due to broken timing belt.
    I think the sooner I get the 203 on the road, the better. I mean, get a big dose of water in the 203, you'd simply pull the plugs, give the motor a few turns to blow it all out and you'd be right to go.
    Wotsa matter wiv these newfagled fragile engines?

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts catshamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luthier View Post
    I mucked about for a bit, but finally opted to walk the couple of miles home to get the old Hilux.
    I'd have sat in the 406 and sent the wife for the Hilux.

    As for the motor, I'd go with your first instinct and put in Demannu's known good one. Play with the other later. But that's just me. I don't mind changing stuff, but delving into the oily, whirry, greasy bits, no thanks. No confidence in my ability in that regard.



    Mike.
    Started out with nothing, still got most of it left.

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    Quote Originally Posted by catshamlet View Post
    I'd have sat in the 406 and sent the wife for the Hilux.
    I probably would've as well, but I knew she couldn't have started the old bastard. It's a bad diesel, the kind that defeats the diesel purpose, ie uneconomical, gutless and unreliable.
    To start, one must get a length of wire, open bonett and locate central point for the glowplug rail. Make a wire connect that directly goes to the positive side of the battery for about 10 seconds. Then rush to the ignition switch. Usually goes first time after that but today I thought I'd flatten the battery before I got it to fire.

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    Apparently the most likely scenario is a bent conrod with ingestion of water.
    Anyone had this happen?

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    When I get the new motor in this I think I'll have to fit a snorkel for the inlet so it doesn't happen again. That should improve it's looks dontcha think?

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    1000+ Posts catshamlet's Avatar
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    You should know, she's your wife. Will she be happy to wear a snorkel?



    Mike.
    Started out with nothing, still got most of it left.

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    This problem was first reported with the 405. Because the engine bays are crowded and hot, the air intakes were well forward and low down. Water isn't compressable so the effect is to stop the motor instantly. Bent connecting rods are all too common. In older cars you can get away with quite deep water. Wet ignition will stop a 203 or flooding the spark plug tubes but I never came across water ingestion.

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    I seen a SAAB hydraulic in 4or 5 inches of water on a bitumen road everybody else got through except this SAAB, the air intake was down beside the front wheel.
    The 203 will revel in that sort of going.

    Graham Lewis

  9. #9
    I might be slow... DRTDVL's Avatar
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    it's the same with the 307 and the 406, the intakes are below the headlight behind the bumper...

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    My sister did this in a 405, and also bent a conrod. To repair it the dealer stripped the engine while leaving the block in the car. These days an engine change would be cheaper I imagine.
    OddfireV6
    504 V6 24V, 203

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    Quote Originally Posted by catshamlet View Post
    You should know, she's your wife. Will she be happy to wear a snorkel?



    Mike.
    I never said I'd married the 406. If it speaks back to me I might drive it over a cliff. I don't really appreciate this kind of a problem.

    Now, I'm having a bit of trouble loosening the driveshaft nuts. I got a 35mm half inch drive socket but promptly sheared my tension wrench and bent a couple of other drivers.
    I see the following options:
    three quarter inch drive, heat with the oxy, or rattle gun.
    Perhaps all of the above.
    Opinions and advice sought here, please.

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    My driveshaft tool. Reasonable quality but not too expensive socket from Repco. Welded to a t-piece of of inch and a quarter pipe. By my son who can weld. Length of pipe to slip over and give a work length of just over a metre. Never fails. Those nuts have tractor torques on them. The t-piece has to be long enough for you to work with the wheel on. I was bending my good quality bars before.
    Last edited by Russell Hall; 13th December 2010 at 11:23 PM.

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    That's some rotten luck.

    Hearing the other guys problems with the 405's, I thank my lucky stars I've never done this to mine. I've never been afraid to take it through water. Actually, a couple of days ago I did the same thing to my 206 while on some country roads. No problem with the engine, though I did crack a gearbox nose cone somewhere along the way (which let the throw out bearing push through and damage the pressure plate - the car is on the road again 1 clutch kit, slave cylinder and gearbox nose cone later). But I can't imagine that would be related to the water? (the gearbox itself wasn't damaged)

    When going through water I always take it slow and steady and as you say, keep the revs up a bit (by riding the clutch not by going fast!)

    You ought to get quite a few credits up your sleeve for those times your wife tries to pull the old "mere male" comments.
    1992 405 SRI 1.9lt White Series I
    2001 206 GTi 2.0lt Diablo Red

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    Default Driveshaft tool

    Ours is a good quality socket nut and a high quality non-ratchet driver (the ones with the 180 degree swivel end on them). Sidchrome, Kinchrome etc. We then slip a 2 ft extension pipe over the end of the handle, get one person to stand on the brakes to stop the wheel from turning and it usually comes off OK.

    Sorry to hear about the woes.

    Regards, Erik

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    Yep I exchanged the half inch drive socket for a 3/4", bought one of those hefty right angle swivel drivers and with a piece of pipe to extend it, I succeeded in loosening the first one. Hope to now have the engine out by tonight.
    Thanks for your help guys. Russell , you were the inspiration to go down this track.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Hall View Post
    My driveshaft tool. Reasonable quality but not too expensive socket from Repco. Welded to a t-piece of of inch and a quarter pipe. By my son who can weld. Length of pipe to slip over and give a work length of just over a metre. Never fails. Those nuts have tractor torques on them. The t-piece has to be long enough for you to work with the wheel on. I was bending my good quality bars before.
    For all hi torque applications I use a 3/4 drive hexagon shaped, impact socket for the basis of the tool. Impact sockets are thicker in the wall and a lot tougher.

  17. #17
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    I got the engine out before dark, still have to separate gearbox from engine and then swap all the bits over. Never worked on a front wheel drive car before. The engine mounts seem pretty tricky. Not looking forward to aligning them. But progress has been made. I think this car will be getting a snorkel once it's running again.

  18. #18
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    I finally got my spare car going although the aircon compressor is a dud, so makes a bit of a racket.
    Still I have a nice going 406.

    Thanks Demannu,

    the engine seems pretty good.The clutch was the best out of 3, the injectors didn't work which was no surprise and the oil filter was a hole punching job to get off and I buggered my filter wrench to start with, yet another probability. But I put all the new gear in the timing chest; water pump, idler and tension rollers and belt, so it's got a chance for a new life. I used the wiring loom from the car and discarded the one on the engine, so that's a spare if anyone needs one[freeby].

    Meanwhile the first one awaits reassembly after I sourced a good piston/conrod assembly out of the timing belt disaster that was in the spare car.
    It looks as though that was all that happened so for a new headgasket and a couple of pilfered bits on the other car, all I have is reassembly. Lots of locktite in the sump department. Then I'll have a pidgeon pair.
    Thought you guys might appreciate this art shot of the "hydrollicked" con rod.
    Merry Christmas to all and thanks to all who have helped me this year.



  19. #19
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Glad to see you worked it out Dan!

    Told you it was a good motor, I guess the injectors were to be expected after having sat for so long. Glad to hear that you swapped over the timing belt etc, just keep out of the creek for a while and I'm sure it will serve you great!

    Amazing picture of the bent conrod too. It would be great if you can get the original engine going again, at least you've had practice pulling it out and refitting it now!
    Scotty

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    Lovely

    Perhaps I could suggest it becomes an ornament on the dining room table.
    Regards,

    Simon

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    Crikey!

    Metal and Water were sitting at a bar. Metal, feeling confident, challenged Water to an arm wrestle for the next beer. Water shrugged uncaringly, "whatever turns you on metal, I'm happy to take your money". Metal broke into hearty laughter! "Oh, you crack me up Water". Water just said, "yeah, that's the general idea". And Water was right...
    1992 405 SRI 1.9lt White Series I
    2001 206 GTi 2.0lt Diablo Red

  22. #22
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    I admire your courage and skill in taking on a modern front drive rebuild!

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    I second that!
    1992 405 SRI 1.9lt White Series I
    2001 206 GTi 2.0lt Diablo Red

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Hall View Post
    I admire your courage and skill in taking on a modern front drive rebuild!
    Russell, thanks, but really the courage was what was needed and that was born of desperation. However once deep in the water , so to speak, it is no harder and in fact quite a bit easier than a 505 for instance. There's heaps more room around it , particularly if one does things in a certain order. For instance the exhaust can be very fiddly on a fully assembled car, but with the driveshafts out it's a piece of cake from underneath. I did however make one mistake which I was pleased about. I forgot to put the heat shield on before dropping the engine in. It is not designed to be removed while the engine is in place, and this also makes the exhaust flange gasket very difficult to change. So I cut a bit off the bloody thing so it could be fitted after and also removed easily in future.
    But I found very few of these conundrums of design as I worked my way through the process.
    And although I was fairly freaked by all the wires that go across under the inlet manifold, and actually had nightmares about being unable to fit switches to their correct sensors, I found that they are either so different, including colour and terminal number, or they have specific wire lengths that clearly identify where they go.
    With the other car I am planning to reassemble it with a piston and rod from the other blown engine.
    Having pulled both engines down to that point I see no problems with reassembly except the possibility that the crankshaft may have suffered from the sudden stopping of the hydraulicked piston.
    However as we were going about 2 k's per hour and the seizure was from 2000rpm or less, and as the engine spins freely once the seized piston was removed, I think it's worth taking a chance that it will be OK. I am even planning to put the original bearing back as it appears to have almost no wear.
    I know the pedants will sneer at this, and I understand the dangers, but I have got away with stuff like this before and enjoyed many miles of trouble free motoring as a result.
    One time I put a 403 together, which had a lip on the bore, and I had new rings in it that were fouling on the lip. So I used my silversmithing file and took off the lip on all pots, by hand. That car did many interstate trips and got me around Sydney for a couple of years before showing signs of needing new rings again. I was happy with that, as it got me out of a bind.
    But I digress.
    The internals of the 406 are not hard to assemble , but, once the thing has worn the original bits out, the thing is made as a throw away item.
    Having seen the thickness of the walls of the bore, because the engine that broke the timing belt had a gudgeon go through the wall, I suggest that noone in their right mind would ever rebore one of these.
    It's about 4mm thick! They aren't removable sleeves here.
    Then on the top we have overhead camshafts running in the head alloy. I can't see if they actually have bearing sleeves there, but I don't think so. This makes the head a use till worn job, then off to the recyclers. Who is going to get it inline bored for a set of custom made bearing slippers?
    Basically the whole car has been created with this philosophy.
    I don't think we will be reading about too many full 406 rebuilds unless we have some seriously insane people around.
    Sorry, they are just another example of planned obsolescence.
    But I'll enjoy thrashing the rings out of it while it lasts. It is a very pleasant car to push around corners and has a nice edge when driven in the power band. Too bad it's not going to be around in the future.
    But I'm sure Mister Peugeot has a nice new one he'd like us to sample.
    Personally, I'm going back to my 203 at the first oportunity.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by luthier View Post
    I see no problems with reassembly except the possibility that the crankshaft may have suffered from the sudden stopping of the hydraulicked piston.
    This is a very real possibility. I ran a big end bearing in a 205 and bent the crank a poofteenth. It only grabbed for a split second, but it was enough. There was nothing like the damage visible in your photo. We didn't find out until we were running in the rebuilt engine.

    Given the pain involved in assembly/disassembly, I would send the crank, and the one from the "cambelt engine" to be measured. Use the better one. They have both suffered GBH.

    I still have the crankshaft. The traditional use for these was to weld a letterbox on one end, and bury the other end in a concrete footing.

    Bonne chance!

    Tim

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