'Soundproofing' a 205
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! four_plus_two's Avatar
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    Default 'Soundproofing' a 205

    Well, maybe not 'soundproofing' per se, but reducing the ambient road noise would be a start.

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    Any tips?

    I was going to start with Dynamat on the doors and kick panels.

    Also found this post from Baz about building a new parcel shelf.

    I know part of the charm of the GTi is that it's like driving an engine with a small metal box attached, but I like to hear my stereo as well...

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    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by four_plus_two View Post
    I know part of the charm of the GTi is that it's like driving an engine with a small metal box attached, but I like to hear my stereo as well...
    mine still has oem soundproofing, i installed 4x5.25" speakers, an alpine unit and just turn it up, although i must admit after a long drive i do get a strange ringing in my ears...

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! four_plus_two's Avatar
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    my 'oem soundproofing' has an unusual pong to it, these days, especially when damp ...

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    get a bigger sterio ,mines got

    2x sony xplode 4 inch in doors

    2x blaupnknt 6.9s on back shelf

    4x sony xplode 10 inch in boot

    powerd by 3x alpine 600w amps

    and a V8 couldent over loudenate it ( loudnate is not a word )
    sound proofing would help though.

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spar View Post
    mine still has oem soundproofing, i installed 4x5.25" speakers, an alpine unit and just turn it up, although i must admit after a long drive i do get a strange ringing in my ears...
    And... when you are about 40, you will discover your high frequency and mid range hearing is going/ gone.
    I'm heading for 60 and at 42 was having real trouble hearing in noisy environments.

    At 43 I couldn't hear well enough to do quotes for my business. I was fitted with binaural (both ears) hearing aids. I'm onto my third pair now. I'm currently have hearing loss of around 85dB/88dB.

    I lost my hearing partially due inherited deafness but mainly due to working in the audio industry and listening to monitors at ridiculous sound pressure levels in my 20-35 year range. Yes, I was invincible and it could't happen to me... but it did!

    Ringing in your ears is wake up call the some damage has been done.

    Don't take your hearing for granted, stop listening to high level audio and wear ear protection when required. I know because I suffer the consequences daily! Be very careful now and you will have minimal loss, keep doing it, and you stand to be severely impaired.

    I would offer the same advice to the other dude that has a car fitted out like a disco!

    Once you natural hearing is gone there ain't nothing to give it back with the original quality and fidelity. Hearing aids, no matter high tech (and expensive) are nothing like your natural hearing.

    To labour the point a bit more, I know!

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! spar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    And... when you are about 40, you will discover your high frequency and mid range hearing is going/ gone.
    i hear you (no pun intended) - often putting in a good system isnt about volume but fidelity - i'm 42 and can still hear tv's and plug pack chargers whining. i wear headphones for music at work most of the day, rode motorbikes daily for 20 years without ear plugs... (none of it really at silly levels)

    i guess like most things to do with health some people can get away with it and some not.

    i'd be gutted to lose my hearing since i play 10 hours of guitar a week !

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    due to working in the audio industry and listening to monitors at ridiculous sound pressure levels in my 20-35 year range
    ouch ! on re-reading that it is probably more a serious noise level than i have ever experienced. my wife blames 1 overly loud barnes concert for her hearing problems !
    Last edited by spar; 5th December 2010 at 04:31 PM.

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spar View Post
    i hear you (no pun intended) - often putting in a good system isnt about volume but fidelity - i'm 42 and can still hear tv's and plug pack chargers whining. i wear headphones for music at work most of the day, rode motorbikes daily for 20 years without ear plugs... (none of it really at silly levels)

    i guess like most things to do with health some people can get away with it and some not.

    i'd be gutted to lose my hearing since i play 10 hours of guitar a week !



    ouch ! on re-reading that it is probably more a serious noise level than i have ever experienced. my wife blames 1 overly loud barnes concert for her hearing problems !
    Just take notice of the "ringing" - you are being warned that your ears don't like what is happening!

    Yes, I was stupid, on occasions I listened at over 95 dB SPL plus for long periods.

    If you can learn from my unfortunate stupidity then not all is lost....

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    Tks Rob, all.

    Not looking for volume, more quality. I like music and considering what I expect to pay for top level amps and speakers at home, I have a not insignificant budget for my car, seeing as I spend around 90 minutes driving to and from work each day.

    "But," I hear you say, "why bother going audiophile in the 205 GTi which has panels made of soft drink cans and an engine 50cm from your legs?"

    "Well," I would answer, "Compromise!".

    Hence the sound deadening. Plan is to Dynamat the doors to seal off the front speakers, Dynamat the floor and firewall to reduce vibration and cover with Dynapad (removing the original sound deadening material, which likely has mushrooms and snails in it) to reduce noise, then replace the carpet. Also will add a custom parcel shelf (MDF) to seal the boot enclosure from exhaust noise.

    System will be running front speakers only off a four channel amp and sub in the boot.

    I'm more into Mahler and Miles Davis than Megadeth, BTW.
    Last edited by four_plus_two; 5th December 2010 at 10:56 PM.

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    What is Dynamat?

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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    What is Dynamat?
    Now there is a thread that someone needs to find again. B4 the crash Double Chevron started an excellent thread on sound/heat proofing his CX. sorry Ican't remember the details but I think at one stage there was a bit of a group buy organised as the economic way to buy this stuff is by the full roll ie a couple of cars worth.
    Those people that say I know - generally don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Boulton View Post
    Now there is a thread that someone needs to find again. B4 the crash Double Chevron started an excellent thread on sound/heat proofing his CX. sorry Ican't remember the details but I think at one stage there was a bit of a group buy organised as the economic way to buy this stuff is by the full roll ie a couple of cars worth.
    A few of us looked at a group buy but it didn't save anything (because it's light and bulky, postage swamped purchase price). The stuff involved was at http://www.lobucrod.com/ and seemed like the best thing since sliced bread. Mind you, I still haven't ordered any, but I am restoring a '73 504 TI and probably will buy some for it when the time comes.

    Have fun,

    Rob.

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts Isis's Avatar
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    I agree about looking after your ears and that a compromise needs to be struck.

    As you might imagine, my 205 is noisey. I managed to significantly quieten it down (and reduce heat) by buying this stuff (about 10-12 tiles in 2 different thicknesses):

    http://www.tru-fitcarpets.com.au/resomat.htm

    I put it all over the rear floor, inside the rear quarters and inside the doors. This stuff provides mass to the panels to stop them vibrating easily and allowing noise through them. You can cut it with tin snips and it is nice and sticky.

    I also bought 3-4 cans of the spray-on deadener to fill the gaps. Then I found a house carpet seller and bought 2-3 M of cheap 'jute' underlay and stuck that over the top using spray adhesive to soak up noise, then carpet over that (floor).

    If you pull off your entire interior and cover the lot, then you will make a dramatic difference to the car. The weight factor is really not worth worrying about either.

    cheers
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    Fellow Frogger! four_plus_two's Avatar
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    After spending a bit of time reading about this (have a look at www.sounddeadenershowdown.com) I will be doing the following:

    - Dynamat Xtreme on the door skins (this is a vibration dampener, not sound insulation) to reduce vibration, 30-50% coverage;
    - Jaycar brand Mass Loaded Vinyl (MLV) behind the door cards to reduce external noise
    - Jaycar brand Closed Cell Foam on the floor, to replace the original sound deadening (which smells)
    - Jaycar MLV over the top of the CCF to reduce road / floor pan noise
    - Any leftover Dynamat Xtreme bits to reduce vibration on the rear and quarter panels.

    I'll post some photos up once I start work on the car. I'm trying to find the best compromise between weight, cost and ease of installation.

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  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Isis's Avatar
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    Four plus, it seems you are doing a good job of it.

    I have a fairly massive exhaust and am embarking on an external heat and sound sheilding above the system, on the external floor pan. My theory is to block a lot of the source of the heat and noise before it even gets to the interior. What do you think?
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  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! four_plus_two's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    Four plus, it seems you are doing a good job of it.

    I have a fairly massive exhaust and am embarking on an external heat and sound sheilding above the system, on the external floor pan. My theory is to block a lot of the source of the heat and noise before it even gets to the interior. What do you think?
    Have a look at the Sound Deadener Showdown website, he explains a lot of what works (and what doesn't) with sound reduction. I also spent a fair bit of time on the Mobile Electronics Australia forums, do a search for 'Dynamat' and there will be a lot of sound reduction threads.

    My understanding is that you need to firstly reduce vibration - hence a product like Dynamat, which has the advantage of being light, compared to non-auto specific products (although it is comparatively expensive). The next step is to isolate the noise, using a heavy, sealed type product, such as butyl or vinyl. This needs to be in a single sheet (where possible) to reduce the ability of sound to 'creep' around edges or through gaps. The important part is to ensure the heavy sheet (the Mass Loaded Vinyl) is 'floating' above the source of vibration / heat / noise. This is where the Closed Cell Foam comes in - it's meant to be the next step above the underlay type material found under the vehicle carpet. Closed Cell prevents transmission of heat and noise by insulating the top layer (with air, effectively).

    Hope that makes sense. There is also a cost factor involved as well - if you look at the Dynamat website (and other makers such as Stinger Roadkill) they offer a suite of products, however using them all would be expensive (depending on your budget). To my mind the Jaycar products are a reasonable compromise between quality and cost (although I'm yet to prove this!).

    As always, it's best to experiment - the doors are usually the best place to start. Floor pan next, the areas like the boot floor, rear quarter panels, wheel arches and firewall. I also plan to have a parcel shelf built (or do it myself) with slightly thicker MDF, covered in carpet, to reduce the ambient noise from the rear.

    I've also read with the 205 GTi that one of the best noise reduction measures is to sound deaden the area in the boot hatch, under the plastic panel (where the wiper motor lives). This can be done with Dynamat or similar to reduce vibration, then potentially seal off the open panels (while allowing access to the wiper motor).

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  16. #16
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    As an outright sound deaderer I have no doubts the heavy dynamat type deadeners are far better at reducing sound. they are hopeless at reducing heat transfer which primary and sole aim of "insulating" the car.

    My webpage has been down since the crash, but I'm sure I can upload details if anyone is interested tonight.

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    Just buy a 605 and switch the suspension to sports mode.

    1. 205GTI firmness and response
    2. A rear end that's tied down to the ground like glue (i.e. no savage lift off issues)
    3. Over 50kg of sound deadening built into the car in the factory, for whisper quiet operation at any speed
    4. Silky smooth, near silent PRV V6, that's only audible when driving it really hard
    5. More JBL speakers than you can poke a stick at, optimised and engineered to be industry best practice in the mid-1990's, good enough to satisfy pretty much anyone.
    6. If you're going cheap and want a series 1 car, you get Clarion instead of JBL.

    You can have your cake and eat it too.
    Cheers,
    Patrick
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  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Isis's Avatar
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    Sorry, but surely the 605 cannot be realistically compared to the 205, for good or bad. We will all go and buy S-class mercs if we just want silence, and the idea that the thumping 605 is like a 205 in the corners and general feel is just .....
    S3 205 GTI x 4 and getting lower
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    Sorry, but surely the 605 cannot be realistically compared to the 205, for good or bad. We will all go and buy S-class mercs if we just want silence, and the idea that the thumping 605 is like a 205 in the corners and general feel is just .....
    Have you driven both? Both in manual guise?

    A 605 sits somewhere between an Mi16 and a 205 in the fun stakes. By the time you weigh down a 205 with all that sound deadening...

    A 205 is slightly more chuckable due to a faster steering ratio. And that's about it. Mi16 has a faster steering ratio than a 605, but inferior weighting/precision and control over mid-corner minor bumps.

    A 605 is a force to be reckoned with due to its ability to lift-off oversteer if you really want to, yet it generally remains tied down and secure with such great body control that transferring the weight around through S-bends can be done with utmost ease and precision.
    Last edited by PJ810; 16th December 2010 at 01:54 PM.
    Cheers,
    Patrick
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  20. #20
    1000+ Posts Isis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ810 View Post
    Have you driven both? Both in manual guise?

    A 605 sits somewhere between an Mi16 and a 205 in the fun stakes. By the time you weigh down a 205 with all that sound deadening...

    A 205 is slightly more chuckable due to a faster steering ratio. And that's about it. Mi16 has a faster steering ratio than a 605, but inferior weighting/precision and control over mid-corner minor bumps.

    A 605 is a force to be reckoned with due to its ability to lift-off oversteer if you really want to, yet it generally remains tied down and secure with such great body control that transferring the weight around through S-bends can be done with utmost ease and precision.

    Patrick, I am sure the 605 is excellent and a great buy. In some situations it may even be quicker than a 205 and more comfortable +++, but we will have to agree to disagree that car which weighs 400+Kg more than a 205 is a comparable item. 20kg of sound proofing aint going to make up the difference!

    I had a 306 S16 and I hear you about the great feeling of a tied down rear.

    cheers
    I
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    but we will have to agree to disagree that car which weighs 400+Kg more than a 205 is a comparable item.
    By the time you fill the 80+ litre tank and have four or five executives and their luggage on board, the 1580kg empty weight quickly climbs to a figure that might be double that of a 205.

    But you must remember nice big sticky tyres, an advanced suspension system that alone cost more than an entire 205 new, a wide stance, an overall low centre of gravity, and a weight distribution that's much better than a 205's nose-heavy setup.

    I'm not saying they are going to be identical. Not at all. Just that if you want decent audio acoustics, a thoroughly true Peugeot driving experience, with said DNA showing strong at every corner you take, and overall similar or better capabilities in terms of point-to-point speed, a 605 should be something to consider.

    Weighing down a 205 is only going to detract from what makes a 205 a real 205GTI. Until now I've only heard of people wanting to make their 205s lighter. Making a 205 light makes sense to me. Trying to turn a 205 into a limo, to me, sounds like a pointless exercise because it will never be a good limo and will leave you with a compromised 205.
    Cheers,
    Patrick
    Architect

    1991 Peugeot 605SVE (Written off 2007)
    1995 Peugeot 605SV (Bianca White) *SOLD*
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  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! four_plus_two's Avatar
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    Patrick - these 605s sound good - where can I get one ... ? It is a cracking car, especially at full noise in that 'Ronin' movie.

    Point taken about trying to make a 205 something it's not. The operative word is compromise. If I can make the 205 a bit more livable without detracting from what it is (a dedicated, light, sports hatch) then I will have succeeded. The car is for me to get to work every day, and I like music. So I want to be able to hear my stereo!



    Quote Originally Posted by PJ810 View Post
    By the time you fill the 80+ litre tank and have four or five executives and their luggage on board, the 1580kg empty weight quickly climbs to a figure that might be double that of a 205.

    But you must remember nice big sticky tyres, an advanced suspension system that alone cost more than an entire 205 new, a wide stance, an overall low centre of gravity, and a weight distribution that's much better than a 205's nose-heavy setup.

    I'm not saying they are going to be identical. Not at all. Just that if you want decent audio acoustics, a thoroughly true Peugeot driving experience, with said DNA showing strong at every corner you take, and overall similar or better capabilities in terms of point-to-point speed, a 605 should be something to consider.

    Weighing down a 205 is only going to detract from what makes a 205 a real 205GTI. Until now I've only heard of people wanting to make their 205s lighter. Making a 205 light makes sense to me. Trying to turn a 205 into a limo, to me, sounds like a pointless exercise because it will never be a good limo and will leave you with a compromised 205.

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  23. #23
    1000+ Posts cav91's Avatar
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    I'd take a heavier 205 over a 605 anyday.

    Now i've never driven a 605 but have had a few mi16's.
    The pure "chuckability" of the 205 is a winner for me a 605 will never do that or even an mi16! If its a car to get to work and back and jugding by the fuel costs I'd keep the 205!
    Putting sound dedening in a 205 would make a beautiful car keep it up!!!

    Cheers
    Chris

  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! Binky's Avatar
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    At the risk of bringing this thread back on topic...

    Soundproofing is very different to body deadening as anyone who has built a recording studio will tell you. I don't propose to discredit that which you have already researched. I just recommend you look at a couple of forums on studio building to learn the difference.

    Indeed, Dynomat or mass loaded vinyl will deaden vibration. MLV will also stop noise dead. I can't say for Dynomat - I don't have enough experience with it...

    My research [and experience] suggests that nothing insulates sound (and temperature) better than dead air. Well, nothing except dead space, like that which you find past earth's atmosphere.

    That's why I bit the bullet and bought a shipment of EZ-Cool insulation from Texas as recommended by Shane (AKA Double Chevron). My experience with music studios gave me the wisdom to realise that it's the bubbles of nothing that make it really work. Binky isn't finished yet, but she is an hell of a lot quieter!!!

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by cav91 View Post
    I'd take a heavier 205 over a 605 anyday.

    Now i've never driven a 605...
    Read your words there. What a pointless comment!?!?!?!

    I accept the original poster's arguments for compromising the 205. I just wanted to put the option of an alternative vehicle out there as a suggestion.
    Cheers,
    Patrick
    Architect

    1991 Peugeot 605SVE (Written off 2007)
    1995 Peugeot 605SV (Bianca White) *SOLD*
    2007 Volvo XC70 Electric Silver (PJ-810)
    2009 Volvo XC60 T6 Teknik (Sapphire Black)
    2014 Volvo XC70 Luxury D5 Polestar (Ice White)
    2012 Mercedes Benz C250 (Alabandite)

    Past:
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