Making the 505 run "like a good one"
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! sideways_505's Avatar
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    Default Making the 505 run "like a good one"

    I've read several times on the forum that most 505 GTis run pretty crap but you get the occasional one that runs really well. I'm convinced mine is in the first category, It's not exactly what you would call a shining example of a 505. Anyway, what service kind of thing can I do on my 505? I've got a new set of spark plugs for it, I'm yet to put them in though. Clean the throttle body? is there anything I can do with the AFM? Injector seals need doing, where would I get those? Is there anything I can do to the injectors? It runs very, very rich on start up, anything I can do to stop that?

    One day, I'l get a Megasquirt ECU for it, I'd like to make a 2.5"exhaust when I eventually get a tubing bender too.

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    Thanks

    Hayden

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    mlb
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    I'd suggest getting the injectors cleaned as a good starting point. Whip them out, seals and all, and take hem to your local bloke and ask him to clean and test them, as well as give you a new set of seals. There is also the option of upper cylinder clean that does the manifold, injectors, and combustion chamber. Normally not much more than just getting the inectors done.

    Depending on the ageq of the leads, replacing them with good copper cores ones may be of benefit too.

    Matt
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    WLB
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    Premium unleaded made a huge difference to my Series 2 '85 model. It even influenced the revs at which the auto shifted up.

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    The first thing to do is take the vehicle to a company that has a "carbon clean" system.

    For about $150 it's the best "tune up" you can give the engine.

    The carbon clean process involves disconnecting the fuel lines and air filter and forcing a cleaning agent under high pressure through the injectors, manifold, combustion chambers and exhaust.

    It's a special machine purpose built for the task.

    After that replace the plugs and check the ignition system is 100%. I would be most surprised if you didn't see a marked improvement in smootness and performance.


    I had it done to my 20 year old Toyota Tarago "egg" and it's best tune I've even had done. I was skeptical, but talked into the process by the workshop manager and had to agree afterwards.

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    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    I've always had a negative opinion of the 2.2, due to many people saying they are noisy, harsh, thirsty and don't go very well. I started to change my mind about them since I've read what Graham Wallis has written about his Megasquirt-equipped GTI. Then recently I drove a series 2 leaded GTI that went like a beauty. The engine was smooth, willing, flexible and happy to rev. I would be absolutely rapt if my 504 went like that. I've also found another GTI for a donor car for the 504 GTI project which is another good goer - even running as it is on regular unleaded.

    None of that will help yours go better though - I've probably just made you jealous! Sorry!
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

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    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



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    Fellow Frogger! sideways_505's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlb View Post
    I'd suggest getting the injectors cleaned as a good starting point. Whip them out, seals and all, and take hem to your local bloke and ask him to clean and test them, as well as give you a new set of seals. There is also the option of upper cylinder clean that does the manifold, injectors, and combustion chamber. Normally not much more than just getting the inectors done.

    Depending on the ageq of the leads, replacing them with good copper cores ones may be of benefit too.

    Matt
    Thanks, would a mechanic be able to do that or would I need a specialist? I live in a country area so even a basic mechanic is an hour away, let alone a specialist. I replaced the leads with the ones that were on my parts car, it now fires on more than one cylinder.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLB View Post
    Premium unleaded made a huge difference to my Series 2 '85 model. It even influenced the revs at which the auto shifted up.
    I always run her on premium, she doesn't like regular that much, premium is $1.50 here though! It's 15c cheaper in Busselton!

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    The first thing to do is take the vehicle to a company that has a "carbon clean" system.

    For about $150 it's the best "tune up" you can give the engine.

    The carbon clean process involves disconnecting the fuel lines and air filter and forcing a cleaning agent under high pressure through the injectors, manifold, combustion chambers and exhaust.

    It's a special machine purpose built for the task.

    After that replace the plugs and check the ignition system is 100%. I would be most surprised if you didn't see a marked improvement in smootness and performance.


    I had it done to my 20 year old Toyota Tarago "egg" and it's best tune I've even had done. I was skeptical, but talked into the process by the workshop manager and had to agree afterwards.
    Okay, thanks, I'l look into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by peujohn View Post
    I've always had a negative opinion of the 2.2, due to many people saying they are noisy, harsh, thirsty and don't go very well. I started to change my mind about them since I've read what Graham Wallis has written about his Megasquirt-equipped GTI. Then recently I drove a series 2 leaded GTI that went like a beauty. The engine was smooth, willing, flexible and happy to rev. I would be absolutely rapt if my 504 went like that. I've also found another GTI for a donor car for the 504 GTI project which is another good goer - even running as it is on regular unleaded.

    None of that will help yours go better though - I've probably just made you jealous! Sorry!
    Gee, thanks mine isn't really smooth (while you accelerating anyway) or flexable or happy to rev, I'm not really sure if it's very willing either It has no power under 3000 rpm (it's a leaded S2) which annoys the crap out of me, to go up hills in top gear you have to be going over the speed limit, once your over that 3000rpm barrier it will keep on accelerating up any hill, or at least hold it's revs, under that and the revs drop like a rock. Also, once it's warmed up it idles about 600-700rpm higher, that's bloody annoying too.

    Thanks

    Hayden

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    Have a look at the ignition timing, in particular try advancing it a little.
    Graham

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    Fellow Frogger! tomb's Avatar
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    Hayden I think you will find that the injectors are the same as used on a Camira, (and probably a number of other vehicles) sure I read that somewhere on AF before the crash, been planning to have ours done, so all the seals are available and shouldn't be at a premium.

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    1000+ Posts Gamma's Avatar
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    Hoses, hoses, hoses.
    Replace all you can and use zip ties to gently and firmly secure.
    Check that there are no cracks or tears in the inlet piping, (the concertina section between the air device and the inlet manifold crown is a place to look and look again).

    The cars age and symptoms might indicate a problem with the cold start bypass valve, (the thingy on top of the thermostat housing including heat shield, with a hose in and one out and a wire/connector on the battery side). (Find a new one and replace it, it may no longer be listed as a Peugeot part, but is still available as a Feugo bit).
    /// 1986 SII 505 GTI
    2003 T5 307 HDI
    2013 LandRover90
    Sacred cows make the best hamburger mince.
    If you run, you only die tired

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    Mine runs heaps better on 98 fuel, even better than on Premium (95). Also allows you to advance the ignition a bit more according to my mechanic.

    And early on all bad running problems were sorted out once a split in the air intake (as suggested above) was repaired with electrical tape. Repair still going strong several months on....
    Goonengerry 505


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    Two other easy things worth looking at:

    1. Fuel pressure regulator (at the front of the injector rail) -- pull off the vacuum line: If there's raw fuel in there, replace the regulator. Just might be behind your rich running. Even if there isn't fuel there, probably wise to get the fuel pressure checked when you're getting the injectors cleaned.
    2. Vacuum advance line on the dizzy -- the restrictor "valve" in that line routinely blocks. This has probably long since been done, but if you still have a valve in this line, toss it out and fit a straight through bit of hose.

    Have fun,

    Rob.

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    Fellow Frogger! James S's Avatar
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    Default Gti

    Yes I can relate to some of your GTI issues.

    You can adjust the idle speed by turning the plastic knob air flow valve. The user manual that came with the car has the procedure if you still have it. I did this roughly to my GTI wagon a couple of days ago as it tended to want to stall at lights. The idle setup still needs proper adjustment but it is better - except now the idle is sometimes high and sometimes still a bit low - go figure.

    I changed leads, plugs and set the distributor timing/advance "properly" on my STI a while back and it runs really well. I am yet to do all of this to my GTI. Idle is not exactly smooth on the GTI either so there is a bit of work to do to get it right including checking for leaks. Leaks on my STI tend to make the car stall totally by the way.

    I have tried running 91 unleaded and 98 unleaded and my car runs better on 98. 91 is OK but is down on power a bit.

    Good luck with the improvements.

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    1000+ Posts Gamma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James S View Post
    Yes I can relate to some of your GTI issues.

    You can adjust the idle speed by turning the plastic knob air flow valve. The user manual that came with the car has the procedure if you still have it. I did this roughly to my GTI wagon a couple of days ago as it tended to want to stall at lights. The idle setup still needs proper adjustment but it is better - except now the idle is sometimes high and sometimes still a bit low - go figure..
    You have an air leak!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by James S View Post
    I changed leads, plugs and set the distributor timing/advance "properly" on my STI a while back and it runs really well. I am yet to do all of this to my GTI. Idle is not exactly smooth on the GTI either so there is a bit of work to do to get it right including checking for leaks. Leaks on my STI tend to make the car stall totally by the way.

    I have tried running 91 unleaded and 98 unleaded and my car runs better on 98. 91 is OK but is down on power a bit.

    Good luck with the improvements.
    Run 95 or better in the GTI, (91, like 3/4, is not enough)
    /// 1986 SII 505 GTI
    2003 T5 307 HDI
    2013 LandRover90
    Sacred cows make the best hamburger mince.
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    cdt
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    from the depths of my hazy memory i seem to recall that
    compression ratios for the zdjl are 8.8,9.2 and 9.8 so,
    8.8 unleaded
    9.2 95 ron
    9.8 98 ron
    if your timing is good and the motor still pings
    up the octane rating
    expensive fuel is cheaper than burnt valves

    cheers

    chris

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    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Sideways',
    Not to ignore all other posted advice. Can I ask after the condition of your exhaust system. Flattened pipes. Clogged mufflers. Non original mufflers ?

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    1000+ Posts bluey504's Avatar
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    Default Get a speed warning device!

    If the car doesn't perform like a rocket after all this great advice then it never will!
    Air leaks are a massive PITA and are the hardest thing to track down. Make sure the clamping surface is spotlessly clean, metho is cheap and leaves no residue.
    You've got to remember 'Age does weary them' and small things add/multiply in effect. Had a distributor wear to the point that the Land yacht (XD wagon) wouldn't fire number six cylinder.
    An $80 re build and it was amazing the difference. More power and better economy than I had ever got before, the poor old spark wizzer had only done about 385K so a birthday was in order. Wish I'd done that before I replaced the head and lifters as it had all the symptoms of collapsed lifter/burnt valve.
    Experience is only learnt one way, the hard way!

  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger! sideways_505's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Have a look at the ignition timing, in particular try advancing it a little.
    Graham
    Okay, will do, it'l be fun getting to that dizzy though! :S

    Quote Originally Posted by tomb View Post
    Hayden I think you will find that the injectors are the same as used on a Camira, (and probably a number of other vehicles) sure I read that somewhere on AF before the crash, been planning to have ours done, so all the seals are available and shouldn't be at a premium.
    Thanks, I think I remember reading VL commodore ones were the same too?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamma View Post
    Hoses, hoses, hoses.
    Replace all you can and use zip ties to gently and firmly secure.
    Check that there are no cracks or tears in the inlet piping, (the concertina section between the air device and the inlet manifold crown is a place to look and look again).

    The cars age and symptoms might indicate a problem with the cold start bypass valve, (the thingy on top of the thermostat housing including heat shield, with a hose in and one out and a wire/connector on the battery side). (Find a new one and replace it, it may no longer be listed as a Peugeot part, but is still available as a Feugo bit).
    Thanks, I have checked them before (haven't taken them off though), I tightened all the cable ties up and it idled about 200rpm higher! I'l check out that cold start valve, I've got a spare parts car so I can change them over and see if there's any difference, that could be dead too though.

    Quote Originally Posted by thomevans View Post
    Mine runs heaps better on 98 fuel, even better than on Premium (95). Also allows you to advance the ignition a bit more according to my mechanic.

    And early on all bad running problems were sorted out once a split in the air intake (as suggested above) was repaired with electrical tape. Repair still going strong several months on....
    I always run mine on 98, I don't think we even have 95 here! And yes, you could advance the ignition a little. I had a look at that big pipe on mine ages ago, it seems okay, I should take it off and check it out properly though.

    Quote Originally Posted by robs View Post
    Two other easy things worth looking at:

    1. Fuel pressure regulator (at the front of the injector rail) -- pull off the vacuum line: If there's raw fuel in there, replace the regulator. Just might be behind your rich running. Even if there isn't fuel there, probably wise to get the fuel pressure checked when you're getting the injectors cleaned.
    2. Vacuum advance line on the dizzy -- the restrictor "valve" in that line routinely blocks. This has probably long since been done, but if you still have a valve in this line, toss it out and fit a straight through bit of hose.

    Have fun,

    Rob.
    Thanks! I'l look into those.

    Quote Originally Posted by James S View Post
    Yes I can relate to some of your GTI issues.

    You can adjust the idle speed by turning the plastic knob air flow valve. The user manual that came with the car has the procedure if you still have it. I did this roughly to my GTI wagon a couple of days ago as it tended to want to stall at lights. The idle setup still needs proper adjustment but it is better - except now the idle is sometimes high and sometimes still a bit low - go figure.

    I changed leads, plugs and set the distributor timing/advance "properly" on my STI a while back and it runs really well. I am yet to do all of this to my GTI. Idle is not exactly smooth on the GTI either so there is a bit of work to do to get it right including checking for leaks. Leaks on my STI tend to make the car stall totally by the way.

    I have tried running 91 unleaded and 98 unleaded and my car runs better on 98. 91 is OK but is down on power a bit.

    Good luck with the improvements.
    Thanks, I found that idle knob not long after buying the car car, the first time I turned it the car died! I must of turned it down, scared the crap out of me, I thought I had broken something! It used to idle so low it barley registered on the tacho, thank god I found that idle knob! My car came with no papers or books at all, just the rego papers, I got a GTi wagon manual though. Sounds like setting the advance properly really helps these engines, new plugs soon, I bet they haven't been replaced for a while!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamma View Post
    You have an air leak!!!!


    Run 95 or better in the GTI, (91, like 3/4, is not enough)
    See below.

    Quote Originally Posted by cdt View Post
    from the depths of my hazy memory i seem to recall that
    compression ratios for the zdjl are 8.8,9.2 and 9.8 so,
    8.8 unleaded
    9.2 95 ron
    9.8 98 ron
    if your timing is good and the motor still pings
    up the octane rating
    expensive fuel is cheaper than burnt valves

    cheers

    chris
    Mine's the 9.8, I've never had it ping(probably because it's so worn out ) but it certainly does run better on 98.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest View Post
    Sideways',
    Not to ignore all other posted advice. Can I ask after the condition of your exhaust system. Flattened pipes. Clogged mufflers. Non original mufflers ?
    No flattened pipes but the exhaust is a cobbled together worn out heap of crap it has a hole in one of the mufflers so it sounds like a ricer crossed with a diesel I plan to swap the exhaust over from my spare parts car, that appears to be all new. Stupid spare parts car has been lowered so it's a b!tch to work on. I might swap those springs over and make my good one a b!tch to work on.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluey504 View Post
    If the car doesn't perform like a rocket after all this great advice then it never will!
    Air leaks are a massive PITA and are the hardest thing to track down. Make sure the clamping surface is spotlessly clean, metho is cheap and leaves no residue.
    You've got to remember 'Age does weary them' and small things add/multiply in effect. Had a distributor wear to the point that the Land yacht (XD wagon) wouldn't fire number six cylinder.
    An $80 re build and it was amazing the difference. More power and better economy than I had ever got before, the poor old spark wizzer had only done about 385K so a birthday was in order. Wish I'd done that before I replaced the head and lifters as it had all the symptoms of collapsed lifter/burnt valve.
    Experience is only learnt one way, the hard way!
    If it doesn't go like a rocket after all this I'l put a turbo on it! And yeah, air leaks are fun. It's "only" done about half a million KMs so all those little things would of added up I'm sure!

    Thanks

    Hayden

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Sideways',
    Along with your 505's high kilometerage you are obviously running to a budget being a young 'un or student?
    I would be treating the 505 to a basic tune up that is...
    Newplugs of the correct type.
    New leads, don't mess with unknown old ones.
    Ignition timing.
    Engine compression test.
    Clean out any engine breathing devices/hoses etc.
    Throttle body, using carb cleaner. Pay attention to butterfly, carbon build up. This can effect timing.
    As advised look for holes/splits in intake flexible trunking.
    Once this has been done and hopefully improved or not the 505, then may come the time to look further.

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts okalford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest View Post
    Sideways',
    Along with your 505's high kilometerage you are obviously running to a budget being a young 'un or student?
    I would be treating the 505 to a basic tune up that is...
    Newplugs of the correct type.
    New leads, don't mess with unknown old ones.
    Ignition timing.
    Engine compression test.
    Clean out any engine breathing devices/hoses etc.
    Throttle body, using carb cleaner. Pay attention to butterfly, carbon build up. This can effect timing.
    As advised look for holes/splits in intake flexible trunking.
    Once this has been done and hopefully improved or not the 505, then may come the time to look further.
    Hi folks, what are the correct spark plugs for the 505 GTi (series II)? I was doing a search and found this thread. I have trouble working this out as in some stores the info books don't always go back so far (1989).

    From the Haynes manual:

    XM7A and XN1/A-----Champion N9YCC or N9YC
    ZEJ and ZDJ engines-----Champion S7YCC or S7YC

    I had trouble finding these and what are they equivalent to in other brands?

    I confess I don't know which engine my car has, I guess being later it is one of the Z categories?

    My 505 suddenly started running roughly today and now sits at a mechanics place waiting for diagnosis. I couldn't see anything obvious myself. It was like it was running on three cylinders. I was advised not to drive it like that as it could damage the catalytic convertor and/or even catch on fire.

    It had new good leads and plugs about 6 months ago. Maybe it could be a hose since it was ok yesterday and suddenly not when I started it up today. It has mostly been very reliable.
    Last edited by okalford; 16th December 2010 at 06:58 PM. Reason: plugs listed in Haynes
    '66 404 Wagon
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    cdt
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    vacuum leaks. under the bonnet vacuum controls the brake booster, the idle control, the advance for the distributor, the EGR vavle, the ECU, any pollution crap. In the cabin vacuum
    controls most of the temperature and ventilation settings. In the boot vacuum controls fuel vapor scavenging. a vacuum leak will confuse the ecu and not allow the distibutor to fully advance as the revs rise.
    number one on the list is the air intake, in particular the convoluted section about on top of
    the rocker box which can develop splits and cracks and if so will make your car run like shit,
    this one will also confuse the AFM and TPS on top of dissy and other related things.
    how do your fix it? dunno. a quietly idling motor and a good ear listening for hissing noises
    works for me. oh forget to mention if you unplug the crankcase ventilator to the rocker box
    the engine will stop.
    get my drift, having positive vacuum is vitally important to how well your motor is going to run,

    cheers

    chris

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    Driven through any puddles lately Kaye? After just 6 months your plugs and leads should still be fine, but when was the last time your distributor cap and rotor button were checked? The distributors in ZDJ motors are a pain in the neck to get to, and many get cracked or scratched during installation by shoddy mechanics. Even a scratch, with a bit of moisture on it, will track the spark away from the leads.

    But of course, check your hoses too. The best way I have found to find leaks is with a tool I have made that consists of my BBQ gas bottle, regulator, length of hose and then some copper pipe crimped over to just a pinprick outlet size. You simply wave the stream of gas around all the hose ends and gasket joints with the engine at idle and when the engine speed increases, you've found your leak.
    Scotty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    Driven through any puddles lately Kaye? After just 6 months your plugs and leads should still be fine, but when was the last time your distributor cap and rotor button were checked? The distributors in ZDJ motors are a pain in the neck to get to, and many get cracked or scratched during installation by shoddy mechanics. Even a scratch, with a bit of moisture on it, will track the spark away from the leads.

    But of course, check your hoses too. The best way I have found to find leaks is with a tool I have made that consists of my BBQ gas bottle, regulator, length of hose and then some copper pipe crimped over to just a pinprick outlet size. You simply wave the stream of gas around all the hose ends and gasket joints with the engine at idle and when the engine speed increases, you've found your leak.
    Or simply use a can of Aerostart or even RP7/WD40.
    Graham

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts Gamma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Or simply use a can of Aerostart or even RP7/WD40.
    Graham
    On the Holden I would use a can of Black and Gold hair spray, with a nozzle from a can of "START YOU BASTARD".
    Big holes will suck in enough propellant in to raise the Revs. Small leaks would be sealed by "PRODUCT".
    /// 1986 SII 505 GTI
    2003 T5 307 HDI
    2013 LandRover90
    Sacred cows make the best hamburger mince.
    If you run, you only die tired

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    cdt
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    I totally love these old school remedies,
    keep em coming.

    cheers,

    chris

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    1000+ Posts okalford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    Driven through any puddles lately Kaye? After just 6 months your plugs and leads should still be fine, but when was the last time your distributor cap and rotor button were checked? The distributors in ZDJ motors are a pain in the neck to get to, and many get cracked or scratched during installation by shoddy mechanics. Even a scratch, with a bit of moisture on it, will track the spark away from the leads.

    But of course, check your hoses too. The best way I have found to find leaks is with a tool I have made that consists of my BBQ gas bottle, regulator, length of hose and then some copper pipe crimped over to just a pinprick outlet size. You simply wave the stream of gas around all the hose ends and gasket joints with the engine at idle and when the engine speed increases, you've found your leak.
    Well we have had a lot of puddles but it might be more than that. It was a dirty spark plug on cylinder 4 again, a problem I have had recurring for a while. It keeps fouling up. It took longer this time to show up with the new leads and I thought that had fixed the problem. And yes Demannu it is due for a new distributor cap and rotor. I'm a bit in limbo atm considering getting another car.
    '66 404 Wagon
    '78 504 Wagon
    '89 505 GTI S II Familiale

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