Building a 504 GTI 2.2
  • Register
  • Help
Page 1 of 2 12 Last
Results 1 to 25 of 36
Like Tree1Likes

Thread: Building a 504 GTI 2.2

  1. #1
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Lilydale, Melbourne
    Posts
    2,095

    Default Building a 504 GTI 2.2

    If all goes to plan my 504 will be converted to 505 GTI power over Summer. Paris Jansen is supplying the engine and gearbox, and the work will be done in his workshop with my "assistance". I don't know much about the GTI engine but believe this will be a fairly straightforward swap. I actually had a drive of a good leaded series 2 505 GTI a few weeks ago and was very very impressed with the way it went! Can't wait to have 96kW in the 504!

    Paris will no doubt know what needs to be done in the conversion but I still want to start a discussion here about it. Any tips or suggestions welcome. I have a few ideas of my own too.

    It seems the starter motors on these engines are hard to access, so I plan to put a rebuilt starter on to hopefully avoid having to remove it for a long while! I'm wondering about putting a lightened flywheel on.

    The 504 already has a 505 radiator fitted, as well as an electric fan mounted on the back of the radiator. I guess I should be able to retain this setup with the 2.2?

    I also need to decide what engine management to use. Megasquirt is the obvious and cheaper choice, but should I take the opportunity to fit something fancier? Paris mentioned Link as an option. If Megasquirt, where can it be purchased?

    I wouldn't mind lining up Demannu's 504 with mine when they are both finished!

    Advertisement


    Please discuss.
    Mclee likes this.
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! James S's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    345

    Default 2.2

    Hi John,

    Good choice. I have a 505 GTI manual wagon, a 505 STI manual sedan, drove a 505 SLi manual sedan on Friday (have owned one in the past) and have owned 505 SRs and GRs manuals. Of these cars, the GTI has the most go, revs well and seems to be the most fuel efficient in standard form (I do like the XN1 motor also though).

    Your radiator - you'll need an STI or GTI one as the top hose is on the right hand side for the ZDJ motor, whereas it is on the left hand side of the XN1 motor. The thermostat housings which the top hose joins to are in different positions for these engines. Funnily enough, I bought a second hand ZDJ type radiator today as the one in my GTI is about to expire ($100 from local mechanic) so my radiator knowledge is fresh. He has another really good one if you get desperate and don't mind paying postage but I can't imagine that you will have trouble finding one down there.

    The starter - yep, hard to access along with the distributor as they are buried under the inlet manifold and in the 505, there is hardly any room at the back of the motor to access the bolts that hold the starter in through the bellhousing. If you don't remove the gearbox to change the engine, you will still have the fun task of doing those bolts up in situ - allen key head I think and tricky with the inlet manifold on. Knowing that you have a rebuilt one is a good safeguard I guess. It could save you some pain down the track.

    An aside - do you know of any 504s with the 505 SLi motors/heads fitted with improved fuel injection? I will have a spare SLi motor (and GTI motor actually) very shortly and am starting to think about the possibilities for a future project.

    James
    Last edited by James S; 15th November 2010 at 10:55 AM.

  3. #3
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by peujohn View Post
    If all goes to plan my 504 will be converted to 505 GTI power over Summer. Paris Jansen is supplying the engine and gearbox, and the work will be done in his workshop with my "assistance". I don't know much about the GTI engine but believe this will be a fairly straightforward swap. I actually had a drive of a good leaded series 2 505 GTI a few weeks ago and was very very impressed with the way it went! Can't wait to have 96kW in the 504!

    Paris will no doubt know what needs to be done in the conversion but I still want to start a discussion here about it. Any tips or suggestions welcome. I have a few ideas of my own too.

    It seems the starter motors on these engines are hard to access, so I plan to put a rebuilt starter on to hopefully avoid having to remove it for a long while! I'm wondering about putting a lightened flywheel on.

    The 504 already has a 505 radiator fitted, as well as an electric fan mounted on the back of the radiator. I guess I should be able to retain this setup with the 2.2?

    I also need to decide what engine management to use. Megasquirt is the obvious and cheaper choice, but should I take the opportunity to fit something fancier? Paris mentioned Link as an option. If Megasquirt, where can it be purchased?

    I wouldn't mind lining up Demannu's 504 with mine when they are both finished!

    Please discuss.
    Lightened flywheel is a great idea, these are very heavy in the 2.2.
    I have an MS1 already tuned for a GTi motor if you are interested.
    Graham

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Athens, Greece
    Posts
    661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Lightened flywheel is a great idea, these are very heavy in the 2.2.
    I have an MS1 already tuned for a GTi motor if you are interested.
    Graham
    I am sure both of the above will worl very well, use may also want to regrind the cam to something a biit more aggressive and open up the exhaust a bit (i.e. remove the middle muffler) if fueling can be programmed.

    Judging by the work done on Jay's motor, lining up a standard 2.2 with Demannu's may be a fun exercise but the result will be hardly unexpected.

  5. #5
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanos View Post
    I am sure both of the above will worl very well, use may also want to regrind the cam to something a biit more aggressive and open up the exhaust a bit (i.e. remove the middle muffler) if fueling can be programmed.

    Judging by the work done on Jay's motor, lining up a standard 2.2 with Demannu's may be a fun exercise but the result will be hardly unexpected.
    I removed the front muffler and replaced with a small expansion box (sometimes referred to as a Hot Dog) and from there had made a 2inch system with low restriction muffler at the rear.
    This made a big difference to both the GTi and the GR cars it was fitted to.
    I have a modified cam that I got from forum member Rally I think Al has grabbed this but you could get in touch with Rally for the specs.
    Graham

  6. #6
    al
    al is offline
    1000+ Posts al's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    melbourne
    Posts
    2,012

    Default

    Sounds good John - is the engine being freshened up? Mine was pissing oil for a while. I did the seals on the front of the engine when the cambelt and stuff was changed, then a couple of other seals later on. It has been much better lately. The box also has some serious leaks, so it would be worth replacing all of them while they are accessible.

    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    I removed the front muffler and replaced with a small expansion box (sometimes referred to as a Hot Dog) and from there had made a 2inch system with low restriction muffler at the rear.
    This made a big difference to both the GTi and the GR cars it was fitted to.
    I have a modified cam that I got from forum member Rally I think Al has grabbed this but you could get in touch with Rally for the specs.
    Graham
    Finally got in touch with the painter this weekend, so things should start moving.

    Keen for the cam and possibly the megasquirt, if you are confident you can get it working well. I drive the 505 to work across the city quite often so it needs to be reliable and somewhat sensible. It is back on sensible duties after the golf broke down again on saturday...
    405 Mi16 - Sold - Now back
    205 Mi16
    505 GTi

  7. #7
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by al View Post
    Sounds good John - is the engine being freshened up? Mine was pissing oil for a while. I did the seals on the front of the engine when the cambelt and stuff was changed, then a couple of other seals later on. It has been much better lately. The box also has some serious leaks, so it would be worth replacing all of them while they are accessible.



    Finally got in touch with the painter this weekend, so things should start moving.

    Keen for the cam and possibly the megasquirt, if you are confident you can get it working well. I drive the 505 to work across the city quite often so it needs to be reliable and somewhat sensible. It is back on sensible duties after the golf broke down again on saturday...
    Sorry John, someone jumped on the Megasquirt and it is now sold.
    I can do you another new one, Kit is $150 landed and I would charge $250 to assemble and test it plus $50 for the tuning map. So $450.
    Plus you will need a throttle position sensor and air temp sensor, get these from Petroject.
    Probably a good idea to buy a loom for $100 at the same time, very high quality wire and everything is labelled.

    My car put out 80kw at the wheels according to the dyno on which I had it tuned.
    A modified (EFI) 504 2 litre put out 70kw at the same time so must have been fairly realistic.


    Graham

  8. #8
    al
    al is offline
    1000+ Posts al's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    melbourne
    Posts
    2,012

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Sorry John, someone jumped on the Megasquirt and it is now sold.
    I can do you another new one, Kit is $150 landed and I would charge $250 to assemble and test it plus $50 for the tuning map. So $450.
    Plus you will need a throttle position sensor and air temp sensor, get these from Petroject.
    Probably a good idea to buy a loom for $100 at the same time, very high quality wire and everything is labelled.

    My car put out 80kw at the wheels according to the dyno on which I had it tuned.
    A modified (EFI) 504 2 litre put out 70kw at the same time so must have been fairly realistic.


    Graham
    I'm not John, but that is good to know. I've got a lot to get done before i need to worry about the ECU

    Glad to see you got through the weekend ok. I was wondering what the driver must be like after his co-driver refused to get in the car.
    405 Mi16 - Sold - Now back
    205 Mi16
    505 GTi

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! sideways_505's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Perth W.A
    Posts
    390

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Sorry John, someone jumped on the Megasquirt and it is now sold.
    I can do you another new one, Kit is $150 landed and I would charge $250 to assemble and test it plus $50 for the tuning map. So $450.
    Plus you will need a throttle position sensor and air temp sensor, get these from Petroject.
    Probably a good idea to buy a loom for $100 at the same time, very high quality wire and everything is labelled.

    My car put out 80kw at the wheels according to the dyno on which I had it tuned.
    A modified (EFI) 504 2 litre put out 70kw at the same time so must have been fairly realistic.


    Graham
    I might have to take you up on that offer one day. A lot of other things need work on the 505 first though.

    Thanks

    Hayden

  10. #10
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sideways_505 View Post
    I might have to take you up on that offer one day. A lot of other things need work on the 505 first though.

    Thanks

    Hayden
    OK, but now is a great time to buy the kit with the dollar being so high against the US$
    Graham

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! tomb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    209

    Default

    John I see that EAI have quite a few 505 items in their special section, incl new starter motors for $229 + gst

  12. #12
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Lilydale, Melbourne
    Posts
    2,095

    Default

    Blast! I would definitely have grabbed the Megasquirt setup. I'll definitely take the cam if it isn't spoken for.
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  13. #13
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by peujohn View Post
    Blast! I would definitely have grabbed the Megasquirt setup. I'll definitely take the cam if it isn't spoken for.
    You still can for not that much more, see my posting.
    I only sold the ECu with the GTi map, you still would have had to buy the other bits and pieces.
    The cam is available if Al doesn't want it.
    Graham

  14. #14
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Lilydale, Melbourne
    Posts
    2,095

    Default

    Yep, I saw that. Would the new one be Megasquirt II at that price?
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  15. #15
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Lilydale, Melbourne
    Posts
    2,095

    Default

    Here's an MSII setup on Ebay, preassembled. $400 plus shipping. This is what I'm looking for, yes?

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MEGAS...Q5fAccessories
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  16. #16
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by peujohn View Post
    Yep, I saw that. Would the new one be Megasquirt II at that price?
    No, MS2 kit with version 3 board is around $200 I think, Probably add a further $50 for assembly, a bit more work involved as there are twice as many components.
    No real advantage on a road engine unless you want ignition as well which will require locking up the dissy or fitting a flywheel sensor and an EDIS system.
    You could get a version 2.2 board and fit a MS2 CPU daughter board, this will give you the MS2 resolution but you would need to do further minor mods to drive an ignition module.

    Have a look at the MS website, Glen's Garage is the supplier I use, and has a listing of prices and get back to me for explanations of what is what.
    RS Motorsport supplies the looms.

    Graham

  17. #17
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by peujohn View Post
    Here's an MSII setup on Ebay, preassembled. $400 plus shipping. This is what I'm looking for, yes?

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MEGAS...Q5fAccessories
    That's cheaper than I can do, go for it.
    It takes me a couple of days to assemble one of these, either they have people that can do two a day or people that work for low wages, maybe both.
    Graham

  18. #18
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Lilydale, Melbourne
    Posts
    2,095

    Default

    Which MS website?

    http://www.msefi.com/index.php

    http://www.megamanual.com/index.html

    By the way a lot of this stuff is over my head, I won't be asking any questions about what is what because I won't know what to ask. At this stage I'm just planning the overall conversion and buying the bits I'll need.
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  19. #19
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by peujohn View Post
    Which MS website?

    http://www.msefi.com/index.php

    http://www.megamanual.com/index.html

    By the way a lot of this stuff is over my head, I won't be asking any questions about what is what because I won't know what to ask. At this stage I'm just planning the overall conversion and buying the bits I'll need.
    Glens Garage can be found here:
    http://www.glensgarage.com/catalog/?...FQLwbwodHya9Vg
    Graham

  20. #20
    al
    al is offline
    1000+ Posts al's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    melbourne
    Posts
    2,012

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    You still can for not that much more, see my posting.
    I only sold the ECu with the GTi map, you still would have had to buy the other bits and pieces.
    The cam is available if Al doesn't want it.
    Graham
    I was keen to drop it in when we pull the engine out and rebuild it. If you want to move it now we can get another ground though.

    Is it worth replicating now so a few of us could try it out? Or alternatively you could sell it to John who can be a guinea pig!
    405 Mi16 - Sold - Now back
    205 Mi16
    505 GTi

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Ferntree Gully, Melbourne, Victoria
    Posts
    210

    Default MS3 is better

    I wouldn't bother with MSII, go straight to MS3.

    I have since upgraded from MS2 to MS3 and MS3 is heaps better then MS2, it uses the better coding which allows 16x16 tables et.

    in doing that, you can go with the V3.57 (SMD board) and use the ms3 and ms3x board. it is more expensive at $640 (diyautotune) but there is no need to solder any wires (almost plug and play)

    www.ms3efi.com

    have a look, i should have my car at the Dec. PCCV meeting, so i will be able to show you a bit more there.
    Mike
    1972 504 Ti

  22. #22
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike L View Post
    I wouldn't bother with MSII, go straight to MS3.

    I have since upgraded from MS2 to MS3 and MS3 is heaps better then MS2, it uses the better coding which allows 16x16 tables et.

    in doing that, you can go with the V3.57 (SMD board) and use the ms3 and ms3x board. it is more expensive at $640 (diyautotune) but there is no need to solder any wires (almost plug and play)

    www.ms3efi.com

    have a look, i should have my car at the Dec. PCCV meeting, so i will be able to show you a bit more there.
    Mike
    If nothing else it at least has a USB port rather then the outdated serial connection.
    16 by 16 is a lot of points to tune though, and maybe no real advantage on an older engine.
    Graham

  23. #23
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Lilydale, Melbourne
    Posts
    2,095

    Default

    I've discussed a few things with Paris over the last few days and for the sake of an easier conversion I'm currently on the lookout for a leaded, manual 505 GTI suitable as a donor car. Series 2 preferably.
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Gundaroo (near Canberra)
    Posts
    214

    Default

    Are you going to replace the valve guides and run it unleaded?
    Lets just say we have a few pugs about!

  25. #25
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    melbourne Australia
    Posts
    74

    Default

    No Need Hypocristo, All Alloy head 505 Motors have hardened valve seats, run fine on Premium Unleaded.

    PJ

Page 1 of 2 12 Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •